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So, is it all right to be an English nationalist?

Paul Kingsnorth

Published 17 April 2008

England is losing its pubs, its post offices and its basic culture. Those on the left should stop being so ashamed of their own nationality

For the past 15 years I have been an environmentalist and campaigner for social justice. I have been a road protester and an anti-globalisation activist. I have worked for revolutionaries in Mexico, been tear-gassed in Genoa, joined protesters against the World Trade Organisation in South Africa and watched armies of the landless poor invade private estates in Brazil.

All of this means that those who want to categorise me politically should find it pretty easy. They would probably see me as a bit of a lefty and, mostly, they would be right. Which makes what I am about to say perhaps rather surprising. For as St George's Day approaches, and brings with it the usual round of English agonising about "who we are" and what constitutes our "Englishness" and whether we should even be talking about it in our shiny new "multicultural" nation, I have a declaration to make.

It is a declaration which, even now, makes me nervous, as if I were committing some kind of sin. However, I am going to take a deep breath and make it anyway, both because it matters to me and because it is true. I am going to admit, finally, in public: I am an English nationalist.

And that's not the end of it, because I want to argue that there should be many more like me; that England should matter as much to the left as it historically has done to the right - and as it does to the many millions of people across the country who do not consider themselves to be right-wing either. England, for reasons I will come to in a moment, is in dire need of an inclusive, forward-looking nationalist movement. Not only is this possible, it is desirable, necessary, and very timely.

The problem with making this argument is that, to the left, nationalism is anathema. It is everything, apparently, to which the enlightened stand opposed. It is backward-looking, paranoid, racist, chauvinistic, the very opposite of internationalism, which by contrast is enlightened and co-operative, forward-looking and just. Nationalism leads to the gas chamber, internationalism to the sunlit uplands.

There are certainly plenty of reasons to be suspicious of nationalism, and plenty of historic examples of its dark side. There are reasons, too, to be concerned about some of those who take on the mantle today, many of whom do come from a dark political place. But wait a minute: how have the Scottish managed to get themselves a government that is both nationalist and left-wing? How is it that the French are able to invoke 'état from the left as well as the right? Why do the Zapatistas in Mexico, who talk proudly of their Mexican as well as their indigenous identity while conducting armed insurrections against the state, attract the admiration of young English radicals? Why is nationalism good in Venezuela or Cuba but not here? And why is talk of identity and culture admired among our ethnic-minority communities, yet when the English as a whole discuss such ideas, the spectre of Enoch Powell and the British National Party is immediately conjured up?

It is customary at this point to invoke George Orwell, who wrote, nearly 70 years ago, that "England is perhaps the only great country whose intellectuals are ashamed of their own nationality". The average English liberal, he observed, was so out of touch with popular culture that he considered it "a duty to snigger at every English institution, from horse racing to suet puddings". Orwell is still worth the reference, because this attitude is one of the few things that doesn't seem to have changed much in England in seven decades.

Still, among some of the more regressive strands of the English left, the self-loathing continues. We will probably see it on 23 April, Shakespeare's birthday and St George's Day, as ageing liberals are wheeled out to instruct us that "English culture" does not even exist, that everyone is an immigrant anyway, that morris dancing was invented by the Victorians, that St George was Lebanese and that, besides, we're all "multicultural" now, so talking about it will probably offend somebody (though it will never be specified exactly who).

But decades of such cultural self-harm have had three dangerous consequences. The first is that the far right has been able to colonise Englishness for itself, conflate it with whiteness and make us all even more nervous about discussing it. The second is that the genuine political injustices under which England currently labours are not being addressed by the left. And the third is that the door has been flung wide open for global capitalism to gleefully tear up what remains of the English landscape, both physical and cultural, and replace it with strip malls, motorways, corporate farms and gated communities for the rich. England is losing its soul, and the left has had far too little to say about it.

Four nations

I would argue that there are two strong cases for an English nationalism of the left: a political case and a cultural one. Since 1997, the political landscape within the UK has changed dramatically as a result of devolution to Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland. These devolutions were the right thing to do. They responded to a desire, particularly in Scotland, for increased self-governance, a desire which sprang both from a sense of national identity and a sense of injustice and which was articulated in Scotland by the Scottish National Party and in Wales by Plaid Cymru, both nationalist parties of the left.

Yet the devolution process was flawed because it confused Britain with England. The UK contains four nations. Three of them now have governments separate from, though answerable to, the British government. The fourth - England - does not. The English, as a result, have a problem.

Instead of our own elected parliament or assembly, England today is governed by eight unaccountable, undemocratic and largely unknown "regional assemblies", stuffed with corporate shills and political placemen, which make hugely important decisions on housing, spatial planning and transport. Meanwhile, at Westminster, Scottish and Welsh MPs are making decisions about the future of England for which they will never have to answer to their constituents - though English MPs cannot do the same in those countries.

This, the hoary old "West Lothian question", has already had a gravely undemocratic impact on the people of England. In 2003, for example, Tony Blair's controversial bill creating foundation hospitals, rejected by the Scottish Parliament and the Welsh Assembly, was imposed on the English despite the opposition to it from a majority of English MPs: new Labour drilled its Scottish and Welsh MPs into the lobbies to force upon the English something their own people had already rejected. The next year, university top-up fees (also rejected in Scotland and Wales) were forced down the throats of the English by just five votes - the votes of Scottish MPs.

England, the only British nation without any form of democratic devolution, is also, startlingly, the only nation in Europe without its own parliament or government. It receives less money from the Treasury per head of population than the other British nations (the poorest part of Britain, incidentally, is in England; it is Cornwall) and has fewer MPs per head of population, too. Despite devolution, the British government has ministers for Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland - but no minister for England.

Growing numbers of English people are angry about this, and Gordon Brown's clumsy campaign to promote "Britishness" should be seen as a deliberate attempt to fend off growing English demands for political justice, which would torpedo new Labour's (largely Scottish) power base. Yet the point here is not to criticise the Celtic nations, to be "anti-Scottish" or anti-anyone. The point is to be pro-justice and pro-democracy.

Then there is the cultural case. In today's England we are losing what makes us who we are, at a frightening rate. Some of the world's most rapacious corporations, in a cosy alliance with an overcentralised government in love with the notion that business values are national values, are tearing meaning and character from the landscape. The independent, the historic and the diverse are everywhere being replaced by the corporate, the bland and the controlled.

Consider some of the casualties. The English pub, probably the best-known international symbol of our folk culture, is dying; 57 pubs shut up shop every month. Under new Labour we have lost 30,000 independent shops (including half of our independent bookshops), half of our orchards, a quarter of all our post offices (with many more to come) and 40 per cent of our dairy farms. The number of out-of-town shopping centres has increased fourfold in 20 years. We are seeing the streets of our major cities sold off to private corporations. Inner-city markets that serve poor communities are being cleared to make way for executive flats. Property prices have risen so sharply since 1997 - in some places by almost 400 per cent - that entire communities have simply shrivelled and died. This is a huge, and in some cases irreversible, cultural loss, a loss of the everyday culture of the people.

Rallying cry

Political justice for England, then, and economic and cultural justice, too: this should be the rallying cry for a new breed of English nationalists. Most of us, Tory or Labour or anything else, would agree that the BNP should not be allowed to hijack our national identity (the BNP, as the name makes clear, is a British, not an English, nationalist party).

But if this is the case, why should we also allow the more respectable right-wingers to have it all to themselves? English folk culture belongs to all of us; the political injustices of the current constitutional settlement are injustices whoever you vote for. Why should those who consider themselves "left-wing", however they define that term, not be able to consider themselves English nationalists, too?

In truth, there is no good reason, other than fear and prejudice. It is time to reclaim both England and the proud tradition of radical nationalism, rooted but not chauvinistic, outward-looking but aware of our past, attached to place not race, geography not biology. The need to belong - the need for a sense of place and culture - is a basic human impulse. It should not be denied, and neither is it a bad thing unless it is perverted. If we don't want it to be perverted we need to see that it isn't, by claiming it for all of us.

Paul Kingsnorth's "Real England: the Battle Against the Bland" is just out, published by Portobello Books (£14.99). For more details visit: http://www.realengland.co.uk

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67 comments from readers

Home Rule for England
17 April 2008 at 11:37

Excellent!. Paul is quite correct. The BNP is a British Part and its view do not represent those of any true English Nationalist. The BNP's nonsensical idea of an English Parliament is one to which only those with true Anglo Saxon heritage can be admitted. How many of us can prove that? How many of us would want to prove that?

The English Democrats Party is the party of English Nationalists. Open to all the people of England irrespective of colour religon etc.

IMArcher
17 April 2008 at 11:50

Basically, you are distinguishing between civic and ethnic nationalism. Civic nationalism is valid, but I suggest that it can only work in a situation of overwhelming ethnic homogeneity. Look at what has happened in Britain as a whole. Labour appealed to Scottish, Welsh (and I suppose Northern Irish) nationalism in order to push through devolution, while the ruling elite denigrated English nationalism in order to forestall real devolution for England. A Labour MP even opined that England had to be partitioned into ‘regions’ because ‘ethnic minorities’ did not want to be considered English. Gordon Brown is now desperately trying to re-invent some kind of civic British nationalism, but it won’t work because by having disunited the UK and introducing non-indigenous self-sustaining ethnic communities there are now too many different ethnicities for ‘Britishness’, or civic British nationalism, to have any meaning. As for England, when there are no ethnic English left, replaced by multiple ethnicities (see demographic forecasts), English civic nationalism will be meaningless too.

pearlescence
17 April 2008 at 12:36

I think there is a rather simple political stumbling block. Many who consider themselves left-wing English nationalists would be be afraid of devolution for England because the Conservative party has such a strong majority throughout most English constituencies. There is a fear that supporting English nationalism could mean shooting themselves in the foot from a left-wing political perspective.

Stephen Gash
17 April 2008 at 14:00

Left wing and right wing are outmoded concepts generally now used only by lazy journalists.

Those opposing mass migration are often anti-globalists too! Gordon Brown was recently chastised by the South African president for the UK's poaching of skilled workers, under the new immigration points system.

The world is in a mess and people are now far too sophisticated and complicated to attempt to box them into left and right.

True nationalism is the purest form of politics. It means looking after one's own people, country and culture and not attempting to expand into other countries.

The operative word in 'National Socialism' is 'socialism' not 'national'.

Socialists cannot help but impose their own views on others and the 'left' have killed more people than all the other regimes put together.

Stephen Gash
17 April 2008 at 14:05

I know from experience that the nastiest most violent people are the self-styled "Antifascists" who use violence as a first tactic against those whom they oppose.

The new age Kristallnachters are in fact "Antifa"

Craig_Griffiths
17 April 2008 at 14:36

What complete rubbish written by Stephen Gash. I'd like to see the historical justification for "The operative word in 'National Socialism' is 'socialism' not 'national'"

as for the article - interesting, but I think the "West Lothian question" has been blown out of all proportion. In theory it's a constitutional peculiarity but to say that the english are underrepresented is nonsense - British wealth goes overhwhelmingly to London and the south-east

Stephen Gash
17 April 2008 at 14:57

Socialists by their very nature are expansionists. The Nazis were socialists, even going to the extent of eating the same meal on Sundays, to show volks equality.

There hasn't been a socialist regime yet that has not oppressed its people. We have a socialist government now and the most intrusive and oppressive laws imagineable. We have paid informants, 26 differents kinds of whom can enter your home without a warrant.

We see English common law being replaced by Roman Law favoured by the EU and Scotland. Roman law is merely a vehicle for state tyranny.

The self-styled left is the most bullying, oppressive and dishonest group of people in the world, especially those of the 'left' who also style themselves as 'liberal'. They have a list as long as the list of 'hate-laws' of all the things they wish to ban.

Stephen Gash
17 April 2008 at 15:12

What a load of rubbish written by Craig Griffiths. We are talking about nations here, not comparing the nations of Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland with parts of the nation of England. Brown and Nu Labour may say "England is not a nation, just a collection of regions" (Robin Cook, BBC radio) and write "there is no such nationality as English" (John Prescott), but we are indeed the only nation in the EU without our own parliament.

Having bust up the UK and got us all at each others' throats, Labour is attempting to bust up England.

The only reason English MPs do not support an English Parliament is because they would be rendered redundant overnight, just have MPs in Scotland were when the Scottish Parliament was established. All Scottish MPs do now is meddle in English affairs (the latest thing reported today is replacing English GCSEs and A levels with a diploma, but not in Scotland) and rubber stamp EU foreign policy.

An English Parliament would reduce the number of politicians and give the English a government focusing on England. The government speaks about lack of democracy in Zimbabwe, but denies the English a referendum on an English Parliament. The excuse is that it would break up the UK. Well Labour is actively supporting the break up of Serbia by hiving off Kosovo. Mind you the Kurds are compelled to stay in Iraq and the Zulus in South Africa, because Brown et al insist they must.

We need an English national government which allows foreign countries to sort out their own problems, including Scotland.

john problem
17 April 2008 at 18:45

Bearing in mind the number of times our benighted government has taken it upon itself to criticise other nations, one could make a strong case for old Mugabe coming over and telling us how to hang on to the things we love. Or Ching Yong Dow. Or Muhammed el-Fatwa. Or Ivan the Terrible.

Carl Packman
17 April 2008 at 19:36

Nationalism is empty without the activity of the people involved, since being proud of ones country will depend on the country in hand, this would mean that a country (geographical location) is nothing, its what we do with it. I, as most people do, simply want a country to be proud of. A country, for me, will achieve this when it opts out of global exploitation - in all its many ways.

For this matter, I am a Nationalist since I want to take the country (and indeed Nationalism) away from those who I believe pervert Nationalism, such as the BNP. I believe any country has potential, especially England, and I am most proud of the revolutionary legacy of it, from John Ball, to the activity of the Fabians, to the miners, to the anti-war campaigners. These things inform my Nationalism.

My point is this; Nationalism is not inherently right-wing, indeed look at Cuba, or any leftist Latin American country, there Nationalism is important.

Regarding the comments of Stephen Gash, were a Socialist not allowed to act on their views, they would open the door for the enemy to act on their behalf. Certain governments acting on what they believe was the best way to pursue Socialism have often been harmful to the cause, I think it is unfounded and wrong to say "the 'left' have killed more people than all the other regimes put together."

Regarding what Home Rule for England has said, the English Democrats are a single issue party who also have a stab at policy, one being a rather dubious advocation of a points system for entry to the UK.

Ron McKeown
17 April 2008 at 22:40

The English ideal is based on personal freedom. Socialism is opposed to personal freedom and insists on everyone conforming to a particular set of rules. Wherever a socialist government gets into power then an intrusive police or security system is put in place - something that is of growing concern in the UK. A command economy, as favoured by socialists, cannot compete with a free economy as witnessed by the collapse of the Soviet Union. The England that many of us would like to return to is the free England that embraces invention and self sufficiency and this can only be achieved in an England that has full control of its destiny. We need an England with its own Parliament.

Stephen Gash
17 April 2008 at 23:46

Carl Packman said 'I think it is unfounded and wrong to say "the 'left' have killed more people than all the other regimes put together." '

Mao and Uncle Joe killed 50 million people between them, at least. Pol Pot was a communist. The accusation is founded in fact. The Nazis were socialists. Saying otherwise is denying the truth.

Totalitarianism is a mindset. We are seeing an amalgam of totalitarianism being forged now between Nazis, communists and Islamists, known as Nazislam. They are united in driving a new regime of mass collective control. Don't be gay, don't be a woman and don't voice dissent.

TerryH
18 April 2008 at 05:17

I like this article. The left need to understand the difference between what is good for the party and what is good for Brown's career.

Pearlesssence, I think you’re right about the perception, but in reality Labour would still have won every election in England, including the 2005*. For that year, in terms of popular vote, Labour got 58,000 less votes in England than the Tories (due to turnout being low in safe Labour seats and because lots of previous Labour votes went to Respect). If you went for PR (ie equality with Scotland and Wales) tactical voting would unravel and Labour support would rise. More importantly the Tories would never get an overall majority - they'd be forced into coalition mode and to do that, they'd have to move to the centre.

Craig, the WLQ is fine if you believe people shouldn’t be allowed to determine if their citizens are entitled to have, or entitled to reject, free tertiary education, private finance initiatives, nuclear power, foundation hospitals, prescription charges, etc etc. It’s not fine if you believe they do have the right to decide such things… it’s crap and needs fixing asap.

One thing the WLQ is not is a “theoretical constitutional anomaly”: it is a democratic deficit. Also you seem to believe the WLQ is to do with money or wealth, it isn’t.

* http://www.psr.keele.ac.uk/area/uk/ge05/seats.htm

Carl Packman
18 April 2008 at 07:21

Stephen Gash has obviously missed my point of questioning those who think they act in pursuit of socialism, and when they actually do. I'm not a socialist because I think killing is inherent to it as a philosophy, whereas Mr. Gash is trying to (in vain) expose socialism as this. He is wrong, he knows this. He knows the philosophy of Socialism (if he has any intellectual substance) doesn't imply death, ridiculous little man.

Stephen Gash
18 April 2008 at 10:15

Carl Packman writes like a typical socialist, resorting to personal insults. That's what socialists do. Belch platitudes then spew abuse at their critics. Finally they blame others for what socialists do, saying 'it is not our philosophy'.

Evidence is what I base my opinions on and the evdence clearly shows that socialism results in oppression of the people.

I've not met a socialist yet who is not an abusive bully, of which you are obviously one.

This article is about English nationalism and I am saying nationalism is the antipathy of socialism. Socialism is an expansionist doctrine whereas true nationalism remains within defined national borders.

This is why the European Union is so appealing to socialists. The term 'little Englander' was coined by proto-socialist Liberals to deride those opposing the Boer War. Expansionist totalitarianists always rely on personal abuse to cow their opponents and thereby stifle debate.

True nationalism and true socialism are mutually exclusive. The first encourages individuality within the framework of a national identity. The second imposes 'sameness' while deceiving with the usual platitudes such as 'diversity' and 'multiculturalism'. In England 'diversity' means 'exclusivity' where it is the English who are excluded. Multiculturalism means ghettoisation.

Now try and make a case without resorting to abuse, you just make yourself look like a ridiculous little man, otherwise.

AndyM
18 April 2008 at 14:07

here we go again. this fool provided the same myopic arguments in the Grauniad recently. he simply does understand the dynamics of devolution or the distinctions between ethnic and civic nationalism. one the one hand, he wants an English parliament to provide a civic framework for Englishness. Any fool who understands the dynamics of devolution will know that no political system has survived such an asymmetric political settlement. it would simply mean the end of the UK (the author does not even understand the difference between the UK and Britain). moreover, although regional assemblies are unaccountable and poorly-designed, in what way will an English parliament (no doubt based in London) provide any real solutions to the need for empowered local government. again, he does not understand that Cornwall is a county not a region.

He then bemoans the loss of cultural Englishess, which he sees pubs and corner shops. the reasons he cites have little to do with devolution or other changes be a simply a fact of globalised economic development. does he think that Scots or the Welsh are immune from such phenomena. moreover, why should the closure of such outlets be a sign of decline - why not celebrate the opening of Polish delis and the progrsssive change of culture. does he think that 17th century English people were sat complaining when Belgian brewers first brought over the techniques for brewing 'English' beer.?

the idea that 'the left' is against nationalism is incorrect; though many are against the culturally-loaded 'decline' thesis of English nationalism provided here. there is no doubt that the current consititional arrangements require further modification but to simply recourse to this kind of ill-informed rubbish is regressive. The position of England within the UK is unique; there is no need to a national parliament to 'equal' things. what worries me most is that such claptrap will only encourage seccessionist Celtic nationalism more, meaning forward thinking English nationalist will be stuck with fools like this.

Douglas Chalmers
18 April 2008 at 15:14

Well, there you are, eh? That's what you get when you confuse Saint George with King George and you're left with George Orwell..........

Beer-swilling is NOT a culture, at least not a very pretty one and the consequences for the national health budget are depressing just as much as the consequences of mental depression so thus the economic depression............

The reality is that Englanders are resentful of the Scots who are mostly nicer people anyway so having them running the country reminds them constantly of their own shortcomings. Once being anti-Scot meant that Britain lost its last true monarch.............

TerryH
18 April 2008 at 16:02

Douglas Chalmers, you are a scottie and I claim my ten pounds (English note please).

knave
18 April 2008 at 19:36

The trouble with conservatives on this thread is their generalisations on tghe left.

Like the right it is a broad church

I do think there is a British type of socialism distinct from any where else in the world.

A Bill Shankly, methodist, trades unionist, collectavist based on a cooperative model.

As the great man, who cares if he was a scot

" The socialism I believe in is everyone working for each other, everyone having a share of the rewards. It's the way I see football, the way I see life"

As for the relationship between the Nazis and the left is slightly tenous.

The Nazis believed in Darwinist survival of the fittest philosophy , very close to the economic liberalism of Gladstone.

In fact the foremost capitalist of the 20 C was the Nazis most prominent supporter. An American called Henry Ford

Carl Packman
18 April 2008 at 20:42

Stephen Gash; Since this is what I believe it will only be so long before I tell you that certain elements of Socialism cannot work in the current economic climate, this can often lead to tyranny, however this has not stopped me from being a Socialist because Socialism is not inherently tyrannical, despite your evidence.

Nationalism is not antithetical to Internationalism. Nationalism is being proud of your country's achievements and feeling some emotional attachment to it like a favourite spot to think or something such as that. This should not be dented when your country's Government acts in way which goes against your politics. Hence, such terms as 'not in my name'.

Socialism recognises similarities in peoples and their struggles but does (and should) not discourage people to learn and take great influence from their own country's history. The premiss of Marxism is in fact focusing on the potential of History and events, the four examples I gave earlier in this commentary were 'John Ball, to the activity of the Fabians, to the miners, to the anti-war campaigners'. These events had the potential to change the world for the better, only there is something stronger than those things which persistently curtails these Radicalisms. I blame this persistence on the ills and counter-revolutionary activity on some acts which have been done in the name of Socialism. It is not a kop-out for me to say that some elements of Socialism were counter-revolutionary, since the correct climate is not in place yet to practice some of the key notions of Socialism which will change the world for the better.

Your appalling comments on diversity and multiculturalism, these things do not inherently mean exclusivity and ghettoisation, which means I can be pro- the former and anti- the latter two. Cultures together does seem to work, ghettoisation is a problem of multiculturalism, not a necessary element of it. Diversity certainly is not inherent to excluding the English. Proponents of this opinion tend to use it to justify their own prejudices - the BNP for example don't tell you anymore they hate foreigners and peoples of different colours, they appeal to economic justifications. Admitting that you hold emotional prejudices that won't be changed with factual evidence won't win votes from the vulnerable.

One more thing, most Socialists I know (I don;t know too many "proto-socialist Liberals" I must say) oppose the current state of the EU because its a big business charter which embraces the imbalance of economies, however not one opposes an economic union of Europe when the work has been put in to bridge this gap. I'll say once more that there is nothing inherently anti-nationalist in a union of economies, despite what the thugs on the right say. I can still have the right to feel pride of my country, be part of a union of economies, and hate xenophobes. For these reasons, Socialism is not the antipathy of Nationalism. It is erroneous to believe that Nationalism implies a definite political structure, though.

knave
18 April 2008 at 21:00

"Carl Packman writes like a typical socialist, resorting to personal insults. That's what socialists do. Belch platitudes then spew abuse at their critics. Finally they blame others for what socialists do, saying 'it is not our philosophy"

Stephen you have called all socialists, Nazis. That is pretty insulting and childish.

Also why is their a link between wanting an English parliament, wish I would be happy to see and blind nationalism that is spewing from the right wingers on the thread.

Also every body is slightly nationalistic, why not, we should all suffer the fate of an English football fan like myself.

Ron McKeown
18 April 2008 at 23:10

The original article asked if it was alright to be an English Nationalist. The postings on this article have degenerated into an argument about the National Socialist ideology past and present. Perhaps the nineteen-thirties adoration of Hitler by the a large section of the British Labour movement headed by Labour MP Oswald Mosley has clouded the issue and generated many of the comments. However, why should a question on English Nationalism result in accusations of Nazi sympathies? If it was a question of the nationalistic tendencies of any other country these insulting arguments would not arise. The people of India and Pakistan, for example, are openly nationalistic but they are never accused of being Nazi in outlook. The attacks on English nationalism are bordering on the racist. No other nationality would have these comments made about them so why are the English being discriminated against in this way?

Just for the record you will note that my name is of Irish origin and I am proud of my Irish national roots.

Carl Packman
19 April 2008 at 00:11

Ron, I think the present article opens up the argument which myself and Stephen Gash have had/are having. Just to bring it back to the originally made point, I think the article has given great credence to the fact that lefties can be nationalists. Its good to hear a leftie tell us the attacks on English Nationalism are a paranoid banpotism (like despotism only by a banpot).

BrenWalsh
19 April 2008 at 12:29

So, the forced partition of Ireland by English nationalists has resulted in six counties of my country being called a "nation" now? Wow. All this time I thought it was a faded trophy of England's colonial rampages from a long time ago. Silly me.

Will Straw
19 April 2008 at 15:01

I think there is an important distinction to be made between English nationalism and English patriotism. As others have pointed out, the logical extension of English nationalism is a political solution (ie an English parliament) that could precipitate the break up the United Kingdom. Indeed, English nationalism - for progressives - is undesirable since by definition it is the assertion of the interests of one's own nation, viewed as separate from the interests of other nations or the common interests of all nations.

English patriotism, on the other hand, is about love and devotion - the kind seen during the Ashes or a World Cup but sadly missing much of the rest of the time. Its advancement is consistent with remedies to halt the decline of cherished institutions like the pub and the post office, a pride in the best of our history including a proper celebration of Shakespeare's birthday/St George's day, and an acceptance from the intelligentsia that Englishness is not a dirty word or concept. It does not, however, require a flawed constitutional fix.

james317a
19 April 2008 at 15:16

you don't have to call yourself a Nationalist, Leftist, Rightist, Socialist, anythingist. All you have to do is ask simple questions. Is is good for local post offices in rural districts to remain. Yes or No? Should the railways be nationalised, yes or No? Should the political system work by first past the post or Yes or No? Should the monarchy remain? etc. Most things boil down to single issues, IDEOLOGY doesn't actually have to insist on affecting all issues. Society is more complex. What is needed is a way of representing people's views on these issues. What we need is LESS party politics and ideology. The internet and new technologies offer the potential for new ways of representation and increasing democracy (or should it just be called 'What People Want').

Stephen Gash
19 April 2008 at 19:16

Knave quote "Stephen you have called all socialists, Nazis. That is pretty insulting and childish. "

I believe I said that the operative word in "National Socialism" is "socialism" not "national" and that in my own experience the most violent people are those calling themselves "anti-fascist"

I am in fact a social democrat myself. I actually believe in democracy which patently no socialist government yet, does believe in, least of all the present anti-English Celt-led cabal currently blighting Blighty.

All the chat here about an English Parliament breaking up the UK is pointless. If you believe in democracy then put it to the people in a referendum and live with the consequencies.

"Europhiles" evidentially are the anthesis of democracy, the Lisbon Treaty exposes this.

Major was vilified for poitning out that a Scottish Parliament would break up the UK. Now we have the SNP in power in Holyrood, but still the English are given no say on England's home rule.

Instead we have regions foisted upon us with unelected regional ministers who have been appointed by a Scot with no electoral madate in England.

Brown's nickname amongst English nationalists is MacGabe. He is in no position to lecture Mugabe on democracy when he precides over an apatheid system which discriminates against the English in healthcare, benefits, democracy and even the English identity. All this when the English are paying the highest taxes in the UK.

Who cares about the UK? It was founded merely to benefit the rich in 1707 and empire builders anyway. Not the greatest foundations.

It seems perverse to me that Brown champions Kosovos independence yet tells the Kurds, Zulus and the English that they must stay in some kind of union.

He is the kind of colonialist that would call English nationalists "Little Englanders", but he still signed the Scottish Claim of Right which promised to make the intersts of the Scottish people paramount.

I see no benefit in this post-devolution so-called Union.

Ron McKeown
19 April 2008 at 21:35

Stephen Gash posting on 19 April 2008 at 19:16 refers to Knave who said - "Stephen you have called all socialists, Nazis. That is pretty insulting and childish."

Whilst not wishing to appear to be a supporter of Socialism I think I have to agree in some way with Knave and say that all socialists are not Nazis. Nazis adhered to the Fascist interpretation of socialism which placed them on the far right of socialist philosophy whereas Communist were on the opposite wing, the far left. Perhaps Fabians could be placed somewhere about the centre but even that may be debatable. A more correct observation would be that all Nazis are socialist just as all Communists are socialists. The left versus right stance within socialism was the cause of the hostilities between the two factions and some would equate this to the divisions between the Christian and Islamic followers of the Jewish faith. By means of either propaganda or ignorance of the facts the term Fascist and Nazis has been applied to the Capitalist right which by implication would make Winston Churchill a socialist. By this means the followers of the party of the man who stood against fascism have become tarred with the Nazis brush which, in my view, is a totally improbable situation. By this convoluted argument can I suggest that you cannot be English and socialist thus improving the definition of what is Englishness.

I support much of what else Stephan Gash said.

knave
19 April 2008 at 22:35

The trouble of thinking of yourself as an English or Scottish nationalist or any type of nationalist is the racial, histprical and political background for the statement.

For instance Scots love their tartans but these are arelatively modern invention and Robert Bruce wasn't a celt but a descendent of a Norman Knight.

Also is English nationalism based on the Saxon principles of Mercia or Wessex or the Norman feudal system or Danelaw.

Also we are a "bastard" race both genetically and culturally. I loved that series that showed the "English for the English "Gary Bushell the high amount of West African genetical material he had. Is he going to sent "home"

Personally I look at my nationalism as the present. Standing in a pub with a English asian, English west african and a white English lad all wearing English shirts crying in our beer when were beaten by Portugul.

Although I do feel I am a internationalist at heart because I judge individuals not on the colour of their skin or where they come from but instead on their character.

"By means of either propaganda or ignorance of the facts the term Fascist and Nazis has been applied to the Capitalist right which by implication would make Winston Churchill a socialist"

He did admire the Nazis in the early thirties.

Stephen Gash
19 April 2008 at 22:58

I didn't say "all socialists are nazis". I said nazis were/are socialists.

I say again, I base my opinions on evidence. Socialist governments are invariably oppressive. The EU is rapidly moving to a socialist oligarch. It will fail as all socialist states have failed.

Socialists by nature are expansionists. Colonialists in my view. They like mass collective control and state interference. They brook no dissent. Take a look at Hazel Blears's comments about the Tory London mayoral candidate "the last thing London needs is a bigot like Boris Johnson". They can't help it.

Totalitarianism appeals to certain kinds of people, Nazis, communists, Islamists etc. They're all the same in outlook.

All actually oppose nationalism. They use terms like "ultra nationalism". I've been called an "ultra nationalist" myself, as if it should be some kind of insult.

The way I look at it is this. Blair was a disaster, almost as bad as Ted Heath. They messed up a country of 50-60 million people. If either was president of Europe, they would have messed up a state of 350 million people.

Yes I am a nationalist, but I think the "left" could not keep to national borders. They want to expand their doctrine and will do anything to attain it.

Did you know the Lisbon Treaty has reintroduced the death penalty "in the case of war, riots, upheaval" ?

The first step to totalitarianism.

No I am an ultra-nationalist and proud of it.

Stephen Gash
19 April 2008 at 23:20

BrenWalsh quote "So, the forced partition of Ireland by English nationalists has resulted in six counties of my country being called a "nation" now? Wow. All this time I thought it was a faded trophy of England's colonial rampages from a long time ago. Silly me."

LOL! David Trimble calls himself and his community "Scotch irish", some say Ulster Scots. Either way they don't sound particualrly English. The reality is the Gaels invaded Great Britain and wiped out the Picts. They then reinvaded ireland under the command of Robert Bruce's brother. Congenital troublemakers if ever there were any.

And begorrah - they blame the English!

Ken Loach might like to mislead the world into believing the Black and Tans were all English, but everybody knows they had a disproportionate number of Scots in their ranks.

As I say, true nationalism means you don't go around invading other peoples' countries. St Patrick was snatched from Britain by Irish pirates and enslaved in Ireland, by the way.

If the English were actually asked about Ireland most would undoubtedly say "let 'em have it" as they would say about Scotland. Which is exactly why we are never asked.

No it serves the "Celts" much better to have the British-Irish Council with no English representation doling out £51 billion to less than 2 million people in N. Ireland while the BRITISH government can only find sticking-plaster money for England's flood defences.

To hell with this Union of the nations and regions of Britain.

Stephen Gash
19 April 2008 at 23:32

http://www.british-irishcouncil.org/welcome/bicmain2.asp

Stephen Gash
19 April 2008 at 23:33

members

http://www.british-irishcouncil.org/member/membermain.asp

Ron McKeown
19 April 2008 at 23:36

knave said on 19 April 2008 at 22:35 - The trouble of thinking of yourself as an English or Scottish nationalist or any type of nationalist is the racial, histprical and political background for the statement.

So Knave, is Nelson Mandela a racist by virtue of being the past leader of the ANC? Is Iran a racist country because of its singular political system? Why not give us a list of countries that meet your criteria for not being racist.

You ask - Also is English nationalism based on the Saxon principles of Mercia or Wessex or the Norman feudal system or Danelaw.

The people like the Angles, or the Angle-ish, originated from around Northern Germany and were collectively known as Anglo-Saxon. Similarly the Vikings of the Danelaw and the Normans, who were called North-men because they were also Viking, came from the same geographic area.

Your joy may be short lived when you claim - Also we are a "bastard" race both genetically and culturally. I loved that series that showed the "English for the English "Gary Bushell the high amount of West African genetical material he had. Is he going to sent "home"

DNA and genetic sequencing are still at an early stage of development and it is possible that the West Africans may be showing that their genetic make-up had been influenced by an inflow of European material. We also have to remember that the Romans brought troops from all over their empire and Mr Bushell could have inherited genes from this source. The Romans were here for near on five hundred years.

So, given the thousands of years of population movement all over the world it is probable that the majority of countries have non-native genes in their make up so why do you reserve your criticism only for England? Could it simply be anti-English discrimination?

Stephen Gash
20 April 2008 at 02:02

Ron McKeown quote "I loved that series that showed the "English for the English "Gary Bushell the high amount of West African genetical material he had. Is he going to sent "home" "

They phoned me and other English nationalists to enquire about going on that programme. We were rejected because we said we didn't give a stuff about our genetic origins.

Channel4 is THE most anti-English organisation in the UK bar none! The programme you refer to was called 100% English. In this age of "Britishness why not 100% British? The Scottish clan system would have been a good starting point. Maybe this wasn't the case because the CEO of the production company was Scottish perhaps?

Not long after 100% English Channel4 made a series called "The face of Britain". This had people like Neil Oliver punching the air with glee because they were "Celtic" and not Anglo Saxon.

Anti-English bigotry is alive and well, but those bigots can't even see their own bigotry.

These genetic investigtions are a very dangerous road to thread. If some white supremacist organisation had initiated such an investigation Channel4 would have been bellowing "racist" at whomever had done it. Sodding hypocrites.

Jon Snow presented a programme at about the same time about the postcode lottery in healthcare. It never even included Scotland!

However it found a Welshman in Wales suffering from a form of cancer which the Welsh Health Service did not provide treatment free. Where he lived just happened to border Herefordshire which did provide it free. One of only eight in England that did!

All the health benefits that the Welsh get, like free prescriptions were not even mentioned. Talk about misrepresentation.

It then compared two people in London suffering Multiple sclerosis, if I remember rightly. An English person received free treatment, a Scottish person 100 yards away didn't.

Channel4 deliberately goes out of its way to mislead the public in my opinion.

A racist murder took place in Essex last year (the police treated it as such) and the victims' girlfriend was interviewed outside the pub where it happened which was bedecked in English flags. It was St George's Day. When I enquired what the point was of focusing on the flags, I received no reply, as is always the case.

So keep on laughing Ron after you've taken the plank out of your own eye.

Stephen Gash
20 April 2008 at 02:10

BTW the flag of the Ku Klux Klan is the blue and white saltire of St Andrew - the Scottish flag.

Why is it called a Klan? Derived from "clan" to reflect its Scottish origins. The southern states of the USA were largely settled by Irish and Scots, hence the civil war. How many irish slave owners were there Ron.

In Jamaica 30% of slave owners were Scots at the time the slave trade was stopped. They made up less than 10% of the British population.

I wouldn't be surprised to find the Irish got stuck into it every bit as much as their "Celtic" brethren.

knave
20 April 2008 at 10:41

Once again the foaming right are getting their knickers in a twist about race.

I have problems with all nationalists. Scots, Irish, English, ANC, Vietcong, Nazis and dougnuts drape themselves in flags of their country to hide their own inadequecies.

The history of all countries are littered with acts of heroisms and cruelty.

To be bathed in the glory of Nelson or be abused because of the actions of Cronwell is farcical. These were carried out by individuals and groups of individuals in the past. it has nothing to do with the present.

I didn't serve on the Victory or masacre Catholics at Drogreda.

We all have free will to make decisions which mould the future. That is the important issue not praising or defending the past.

Geneticaly we are pretty similar from the birth of modern man in Ethiopia.

Can I ask Ron and Stephen a simple question.

You meet two men in pub in Paris.

One is complete a*** but is white English

The other is a charming African from kenya.

Do you just talk to white English guy purely because you come from the same geographical area.

Surely the point is that judge a person on character not race or country.

I actually believe in an PR English parliament but this based on devolved views not racial ones.

Stephen Gash
20 April 2008 at 13:27

My views are not based on race, if you actually bothered to read what I said.

I've championed civic Englishness for years. All I, and English people like me, have received in return is being told the English and England do not exist.

It is the "left" who are obssessed with race, hence the plethora of "hate" crimes we have been saddled with.

I am accused by the "right" for being too liberal and by the "left" for being an ultra-nationalist, xenophobic bigot.

There are millions of English people with attitudes almost identical to mine.

However we get the same old faces on our screens supposedly speaking for the English, such as Billy Bragg.

BrenWalsh
20 April 2008 at 14:09

Mr. Gash if you don't know anything about Irish history, please don't talk about it. And the begorrah quote really shows your ignorance. The settlement of the O Neill lands of Ulster in the 17th century was the original ethnic cleansing by the English government of native rebel Irish with poor mostly lowland (anglo-saxon) Scots. The slave trade was dominated by the English and there were no Irish getting "stuck in" as Irish catholics were not allowed own land in Ireland or join the ranks of the wealthy elite.

knave
20 April 2008 at 15:29

"My views are not based on race, if you actually bothered to read what I said ".

Stephen i have not accused you of been racist but your views are based on the mythical English race as bravehearts base their beliefs on mythical traditions.

"I've championed civic Englishness for years. All I, and English people like me, have received in return is being told the English and England do not exist. "

Of course it exists but don't look to past but the future.

You seem to believe in this one bog standard English but in reality Geordies have more in common with Jocks and the Cornish with the taffs.

I personally believe in anarcho syndalist model in which power is devolved from a centralised UK or a centralised English government.

It is the "left" who are obssessed with race, hence the plethora of "hate" crimes we have been saddled with.

I don't that is true. I think left and right have used race to prove or disprove their political and economic point of view.

I am accused by the "right" for being too liberal and by the "left" for being an ultra-nationalist, xenophobic bigot.

I don't think your either

"There are millions of English people with attitudes almost identical to mine".

I expect there are

"However we get the same old faces on our screens supposedly speaking for the English, such as Billy Bragg".

You critisize a man who is trying to put forward simlar views to yourself but from a slightly different prospective.

knave
20 April 2008 at 15:46

Ron

"You ask - Also is English nationalism based on the Saxon principles of Mercia or Wessex or the Norman feudal system or Danelaw. The people like the Angles, or the Angle-ish, originated from around Northern Germany and were collectively known as Anglo-Saxon. Similarly the Vikings of the Danelaw and the Normans, who were called North-men because they were also Viking, came from the same geographic area."

They did but they had totally different political systems.

the differences betwen the Saxon system of the Witan and the Norman Feudal system was enormous. It is the infleunce of these systems that are interesting.

Surely that is the important point.

Also the Scots have more of a genetic link to the scandanavians. Does it matter ?

"Your joy may be short lived when you claim - Also we are a "bastard" race both genetically and culturally. I loved that series that showed the "English for the English "Gary Bushell the high amount of West African genetical material he had. Is he going to sent "home"

DNA and genetic sequencing are still at an early stage of development and it is possible that the West Africans may be showing that their genetic make-up had been influenced by an inflow of European material. We also have to remember that the Romans brought troops from all over their empire and Mr Bushell could have inherited genes from this source. The Romans were here for near on five hundred years. "

Great I don't want to send Gazza home, but does it really matter where you come from or what genetic material you have.

If you feel that is important then I feel very sorry for you. The point is that we have mixed genetic material, so when people say send them home.

Who do we send home ?

So, given the thousands of years of population movement all over the world it is probable that the majority of countries have non-native genes in their make up so why do you reserve your criticism only for England? Could it simply be anti-English discrimination?

Who has critisized the genetic material of anybody ? My point is that doesn't matter what genetic material you have. What counts is our free will and the decisions we make. That is not dependent on what country you were born in but you as an individual.

I have just been to a English heritage festival , I am a fully paid up member, to celebrate St Georges Day.

The secret Stephen and Ron is to be interested in history not obsessed by it

Ron McKeown
20 April 2008 at 18:29

Knave - well done. So, is it all right to be an English nationalist?

That is what the article was asked.

knave
20 April 2008 at 21:36

So, is it all right to be an English nationalist?

Ron why can't you believe in a devolved parliament and have an interest in that past and not label yourself with an out dated term.

If you want to a nationalist. Thats OK with me as long as you don't try to interfere with the rights and freedoms of others.

As for the article, it is slightly muddled I mean British pubs have been declining for the last 100 years

Stargrave
21 April 2008 at 08:20

An English Left Republican programme of sorts is posted here -

http://englishcommonwealth.blogspot.com/

Stephen Gash
21 April 2008 at 11:16

Knave you make too many assumptions about me. I am certainly not obssessed by history and I have written many times that England has always been a multicultural society based upon its ancient counties. You may even find where I have done so if you Google that exact phrase.

Your opinion that my views are based on "mythical English race as bravehearts base their beliefs on mythical traditions." is frankly risible.

I live with the reality of now and right now my nation is being eradicated for the sake of an outmoded "Union". I have given an example of this with the British Irish council which nobody has responded to. Not a single English person was sat at the table. That is the reality I am interested in. So with all due respect knave don't try to box me into what fits your assumptions.

Stephen Gash
21 April 2008 at 11:27

BrenWalsh - stop being so pompous and playing the Irish victim card. Read your own newspapers for a start.

http://www.irishecho.com/newspaper/story.cfm?id=17800

Quote "The significant Irish population in the Southern states of the U.S. was reflected in the fact that a substantial number of slave owners were Irish."

I'm no expert on Irish history to be sure, but try taking off your emerald tinted spectacles before trying to lecture others on it.

If you are offended by what I wrote then you now have a smidgeon of an idea what it is like to be English.

Remember the article I have linked to when you next sobbingly whistle 'Fields of Athenry'.

Tim-Jake Gluckman
21 April 2008 at 11:32

Paul Kingsnorth writes:

"It is a declaration which, even now, makes me nervous, as if I were committing some kind of sin. "

What I have to say may seem trite on this subject, and is just a gut feeling.

The problem in my experience at least is when people start writing in the tenor of English / British pubs / railway / music / theory is the best in the world. Then it seems as if you implicitly saying all British products are OK.

After the recent evenements at Terminal 5 there is clearly no cause for complacency. To plan sth for years and then let it drift truly out of control has a touch of the Absurd i.e. the end of bourgeois society.

I hope that helps.

Tim Jake Gluckman (English guy living in Rhineland)

Stephen Gash
21 April 2008 at 11:50

The English may have a lot to answer for, but they are far from unique in this regard.

The world's "victims" are more often than not equally culpable. The English are no worse than the Aztecs, Zulus, Muslim empire builders, - Irish, Scots and Welsh empire builders, Muslim slavers of black Africans (80% of whom died under their masters, a toll far higher than the transatlantic slave trade), etc etc

Until now it has been easy to selectively denigrate the English, let alone English nationalism because we have tolerated it.

However, that tolerance has now ended.

Stephen Gash
21 April 2008 at 12:01

The greatest threat to England is the United Kingdom.

The deadliest enemies of the English are the British.

Jane Greene
21 April 2008 at 13:52

Gash you remind me of one of those achingly boring barflys you get in every pub - either that or you drive a Black Cab for a living. You're as boring as you are certain you are right.

sarahsmith232
21 April 2008 at 14:13

why are the idealistic so determined to encourage a form of self identity that is not fit for purpose (to pilfer the expression that gordon brown/david miliband seem so fond of using to describe the 20th century institutions that are creaking under the weight of our 21st century international troubles). nationalism has become just as obsolete and unnessary in the 21st cen' and lucky for us all that this has taken place! why the interest in dragging us back to a sense of self indentity that is based on seperation and suremacy? cheap airline travel means the southern english are a lot more connected, emotionally as well as physically, to france/spain than, for e.g, the north of england. probably the majority have never even set foot in the north but have second homes or have holidayed often in these countries. and because of this they feel very emotionally connected to what would just a few decaded ago have been seen very much as 'foreign, you know, full of funny foreigners' countries, very seperate from us and somewhere over there, very far away. a kind of vague view we might currently have about iranians for e.g was, really not that long ago, only the early 1980's, the way we saw the spanish. now we've all adapted to this constant close contact with our fellow europeans and have developed a more supra-national version of self identity because of it. this is a wonderful and brand new revolution as far as the history of the human race is concerned event! gorgeous. and the potential that the fact that close contact with different nationalities creates an admiration, appreciation and an addapting to. we become slightly more - whatever, european/australian/american. and far more importantly, can potentially become very connected to and feel just as much a part of the islamic world. and they us. (ok, maybe not that much of an appetite for this on their part at the moment, but we'll just kind of ignore that slight hiccup as far as this current decade is concerned) nationalism was only a neccesary unifying tool when the world was still so seperated that each individual county, no matter how physically close and connected, could manage to exist without being dependent on or concerned about the troubles of others. and so could turn on each other at any moment in war. thank god we've got past this! have you ever been to america! jesus, if want to know about just exactly how damaging nationalism and patriatism is then just spend a few hours in that country. why do you want to drag us back to this? There’s nothing wrong with celebrating what makes englishness culturally unique but not instead of a more international form of self identity.

Colonel Blimp
21 April 2008 at 17:31

I remember nations being all the rage back in the 19th century. It's a terribly outdated concept. I've decided to take up Racialism.

knave
21 April 2008 at 18:43

"Knave you make too many assumptions about me. I am certainly not obssessed by history and I have written many times that England has always been a multicultural society based upon its ancient counties. "

I am not making assumptions about you Stephen. If you look at earlier post I made that point.

.

Your opinion that my views are based on "mythical English race as bravehearts base their beliefs on mythical traditions." is frankly risible.

I was talking about the Scots and their mythical clan system but alot of Englishness is also based on myth, Robin Hood, King Arthur, and St George

I live with the reality of now and right now my nation is being eradicated for the sake of an outmoded "Union". I have given an example of this with the British Irish council which nobody has responded to. Not a single English person was sat at the table. That is the reality I am interested in. So with all due respect knave don't try to box me into what fits your assumptions."

I agree with you on the Union point and if you read my posts I have not insulted you or pidgeon holed you.

"I remember nations being all the rage back in the 19th century. It's a terribly outdated concept. I've decided to take up Racialism."

Strange logic. If your not a nationalist you are a racialist. Logical falacy. You must be Nick cohen

Ron McKeown
21 April 2008 at 18:59

sarahsmith232 - Did you get your intensely rose coloured spectacles on prescription? My optician does not stock them so can you tell me how to obtain a pair. I want to be able to look at the world like you do but reality keeps getting in the way.

Carl Packman
22 April 2008 at 05:54

Stephen Gash, if you are so unhappy at the people who disagree with you on this posting, and they are from England, why do you have such an unconditional love for England. I want to be proud of a country which has a decent legacy, it has a poor record on some things, but common people in our country have achieved some bloody good things from time to time, I have mentioned twice now four decent examples. But I don't have an unconditional love of the country's record, unlike yourself it seems. Would you give any comments on that?

Colonel Blimp
23 April 2008 at 09:12

Funny you should say that knave for only this morning I was censured for taking my fallacy out.

promsan
23 April 2008 at 15:52

It's worth noting that the mock-liberal regime whilst aggressively advocating rights and recognition of every single minority ethnicity, refuses to even acknowledge the existence of one out of the thousands extant in the world... guess which one? the ethnic English.

The only ethnic English charity, Steadfast, recently tried to bring a case to court to have the English ethnicity recognised on exactly the same level and basis as every other ethnicity in the world; the judge spitefully tossed it out, calling even the idea of "English ethnicity", "an interesting idea".

If that were said about any other ethnicity it would be considered "racist" and patronising; as well as a denial of blatent self-evident reality of the existence of an autochthonous population backed up by respected scientists like Prof Oppenheim at Cambridge. The refusal to even recognise English ethnicity on the same level as any other ethnicity, can only further exacerbate resentment and a growing feeling of oppression of the indigenous people of England.

There seems to be a frantic programme to actively erase and ethnically cleanse England of it's sense of ethnic identity both through mock-liberal propagandists like Billy Bragg, and through the immoral programme of enforce immigration... rather like what the Chinese are doing in Tibet, or the Indonesians in West Papua.

It is civic nationalism that is the illegitimate construct; the only legitimate form of nationalism is the organic one of ethnic nationalism, which is part of the evolutionary neuropsychology of all humans; it's roots can be traced in core instinctive behaviours of all living systems; to deny it, is to deny ourselves, and to embrace the folly of Lewontin's Fallacy; and the false naturalistic fallacy.

sarahsmith232
23 April 2008 at 16:41

Ron McKeown

maybe the reason why my response was deleted was 'cause of the little, dainty, half swear words. not acceptable, i guess, but will try again soon. 'cause you're so wrong dear.

Alan S Byrne
23 April 2008 at 17:07

Great article. Paul's on the button - celebrate St George and England with pride. Just one gripe - Northern Ireland is not a nation; a province maybe, to many an occupied part of an independent country. Whatever, still an issue to be resolved That aside, the English have every reason and right, as the rest of us do, to celebrate their heritage. Although the majority of English seem to have been conditioned out of a cultural self-awareness, there are many great things about this country to rejoice in. It's not for me to define them, but many of my English friends are enlightened enough to look beyond the obvious (monarchy, st george,etc) and to dig into the soil for the roots of their culture. All power to them. An Irish friend.

Ron McKeown
23 April 2008 at 20:26

Sarahsmith232 - I did not know that your posting had been deleted but if it did contain swear words then I am glad it was. As a person of the English culture I find it offensive when someone uses words deliberately intended to be insulting. Before you ask - yes I can use swear words but only within cultural constraints which means never in front of someone that is not part of my close group. Swearing has become a form of racism often used to distress English people, particularly the older people. Unfortunately, as it is used against the English it has become acceptable and in some cases, like the BBC, encouraged.

If anyone is interested the Daily Mail is running an article titled - EU wipes England off the map - as Gordon Brown flies the flag of St George over Downing Street. There is also a poll on whether England should have its own parliament.

Francis P. Lavelle
23 April 2008 at 22:29

Celebrate St. George indeed. For ages Ambassadors to England were accredited to the Court of St. James because of the popularity of this Apostle and his shrine at Compostellas. English men and women travelled to his shrine very much like people today flock to Lourdes. All of this was before the Reformation. The day Queen Elizabeth I died England died with her. Great Britain was born. If Scotland wants to go her own way let her go. England got on before the Union and will get on just fine if it breaks up. May the Apostles Andrew and James watch ove and bless the people of Great Britain.

sarahsmith232
24 April 2008 at 07:09

good grief rob mckeown dear; i presumed you were a perfectly reasonable person. obviously not! the swearing was not personally deirected at you and was only of very dainty, half little nature. i'm sure it wouldn't have offended your delicate daily mail sensibilities.

Ron McKeown
24 April 2008 at 18:22

sarahsmith232 -Why do people end up calling me rob? Funny but I presumed that you were a perfectly reasonable person also. I suspect that you are younger than I so you may not have had the benefit of a post war English upbringing. When I started in the railway workshops as a young lad the men around me could not utter more than three or four words without the most obscene swearing. However, when you went out with them for a pint or two, (I admit that might be a slight underestimation), they never ever swore because they were in public. It’s a cultural thing you see but then why should you or anyone else care about my English culture.

I visit most of the newspaper web sites so your suggestion of my, “delicate daily mail sensibilities”, are a little misplaced.

explodingbadger
25 April 2008 at 09:09

"Swearing has become a form of racism often used to distress English people, particularly the older people."

What uttler rubbish! How can a work be distressing ? Its just a sound... get over it.

sarahsmith232
25 April 2008 at 09:45

if i rememeber correctly you are in the pro nationalism gang; pro englishness. and yet you then want to be dismissive of what is an essential part of being working class english. you wouldn;t be reqlly working class if you were sniffy about it: if yo i;m sure you can be a bit more than dismissive as well:

Stephen Gash
25 April 2008 at 11:57

Greene - in fact it is you who is the aching bore as shown by the predictable personal attack and the way off-mark assumption.

Carl Packman - I don't have an unconditional love for England. However, there is an unconditional hatred for England by the "liberal elite" which Paul Kingsnorth has tried to redress in this article and his book (which I have not yet read).

I am more concerned about a united England than I am about the United Kingdom. The two are considered mutually exclusive by all three mainstream parties. Hence the relentless move to break up England into regions when the people don't want them (at least not the model being presently imposed) and the absolute refusal to have a referendum on an English Parliament which a constant 68% of people actually do want.

Our past is no worse than any other people's yet we are expected to self-flagellate about our past.

If you point your finger at yourself and cry "I'm a pile of crap" don't be surprised when others point their fingers at you and agree. It deflects blame from themselves. The Scots and Irish are past masters at deflecting the blame.

Ron McKeown
25 April 2008 at 23:03

explodingbadger posting on 25 April 2008 at 09:09 regarding my comments that "Swearing has become a form of racism often used to distress English people, particularly the older people" goes n to say “What uttler rubbish! How can a work be distressing ? Its just a sound... get over it.”

Perhaps this person can give us a practical demonstration by going into an Islamic area and saying things that Muslims consider offensive and then telling them that it is only sounds. Then this person can go into an area populated by people of African descent and use words considered offensive to them. Ah - but it is only the English that have to tolerate insults that are directed at their culture is it not. Only the English have to, “get over it”. The culture of everyone else has to be respected.

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Also by Paul Kingsnorth

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