Bright's Blog

20 comments from readers

redharry
02 July 2008 at 19:38

Hi Martin

how would you like to compare your treatment by the Israelis with that meted out to one of your colleagues who had the misfortune to be a Palestinian.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2008/jul/02/israelan...

Perhaps you would care to explain why you had your expenses paid for by an arms dealer so you could repeat Israeli propaganda?

Martin Bright
03 July 2008 at 15:13

I condemn without reservation the treatment of Mohammed Omer and the contrast with my treatment as a journalist is indeed worthy of comment.

I don't, however, believe I was repeating Israeli propaganda, but simply asking the question of why the left had fallen out of love with Israel.

As I said in my original article: "On the face of it, the answer to my question is simple. The British left hates Israel because it has abandoned its Enlightenment principles and set about the systematic oppression of a people whose land it occupies.".

This remains true. It is also true that Israel was once the darling of the British left and that it is no longer so. It is also true that the Israelis who were being shelled in Sderot are not legitimate targets.

Serosch
04 July 2008 at 09:02

It's also true that the shelling of Sderot is nothing compared to the shelling of Gaza, and it is also true that the Palestinian children being killed by Jewish snipers are not ligitimate targets.

Afrasiab
04 July 2008 at 09:05

The Enlightenment in Europe went hand-in-hand with the enslavement of Africa by Europeans, so actually Israel is now following enlightenment principles.

redharry
05 July 2008 at 17:42

Martin, you write, 'I don't, however, believe I was repeating Israeli propaganda, but simply asking the question of why the left had fallen out of love with Israel.'

1. You were repeating Israeli propaganda whether you believe it or not. You portrayed the Israelis as victims in a conflict where they are the oppressors - BICOM couldn't have written the article better themselves. Perhaps you'd like to address the source of funding for BICOM, an Israeli arms dealer, and whether it was ethical to take their money?

2. Some of us on the left were never 'in love' with Israel. How could we love a racist settler state based on expulsion, expropriation and occupation? Which of these are 'Enlightenement principles'? And by 'the left' are you thinking of the ex-editor of the Staggers the lunatic and fanatical Zionist Paul Johnson? Are you heading on the same political journey?

3. 'The Israelis who were being shelled in Sderot are not legitimate targets.' I agree except for members of the IDF. Do you support the Palestinians in Gaza being supplied with longer range and more accurate missiles so they could hit legitimate targets?

4. Finally, you admitted in your interview with the far-right Shire Network News that you knew little about Israel. Is that why you were unaware that Kibbutzim were racist institutions that were often built on expropriated Arab land and have always refused Arabs membership? It is a fact that no Arab has ever been admitted to membership of a Kibbutz.

Perhaps you should read some of Ilan Pappe 's books to understand why no-one on the left should 'love' Israel.

redharry
05 July 2008 at 17:48

Funnily, after a century of racism, one kibbutz has admitted an Arab member.

http://bogieworks.blogs.com/treppenwitz/2008/06/racism-its-a...

But they don't want it to start a trend...

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1212659710913&pag...

knave
07 July 2008 at 07:05

Although a little off topic.

Martin why has Israel fallen out with left.

Well I think it has been a love hate relationship.

It did not start well. When right wing Jewish groups, such as the Stern gang started a terrorist campaign culminating in the bombing of the St David’s hotel. Modern terrorism urban was born. In fact the IRA and ETA leant their techniques from the Irgun terrorists. At this time the Labour government didn’t look upon these individuals as the good guys.

Then came Ben Gurion and Kibbutz’s and the left was drawn to the socialist ideas tried in Israeli society.

Then the war of 1967. Most felt that Isreal was going to be attacked and got in there first. Moshe Dayan and Golda became heroes.

Even the with Yom Kipper war there was much sympathy from the left to the Israeli cause.

Then it turned sour.

The reasons.

1. Palestinian suffering came to the attention of the western left.

2. Israeli society became more right wing due to influence of settlers, north African Jews, Russian Jews feeling form the communists, US Jews fed on Leon uric novels and fundamentalists. These took over from the liberal secular European Jews.

Then the real turning point. The invasion of Lebanon and the implicit role of Israel in the massacres and the dispersion of Palestinians to the four corners of the Middle East. Then the Infitada and Israelis repression in the occupied terrorities. Then Israel hawks and the CIA started to develop HAMAS to undermine the secular FATAH

What I will say is that there are many Israelis who are secular liberals unfortunately we never here their views. Most of them are academics that are why I oppose boycotts. Also I would rather be a secular Muslim living in Israel than many Arab countries.

What Israel needs to do is to adopt to a mixed non secular educational system and try and unite both races with a common purpose

Morgan097
10 July 2008 at 01:01

Hey, knave.

What's happening, bro?

When you begin to sound like the voice of reason, I know that I've reached cloudcuckooland.

Something tells me that this ain't the Culling the Badgers discussion I was seeking.

I'd jump in, but I suspect that wet nasties like Afrasiab, Serosch and redharry might get so excited that they'd again be hauled in for interrogation.

redharry
10 July 2008 at 11:55

Knave, Ben Gurion was a racist and the Kibbutzim refused membership to Arabs. How socialist were they?

http://www.palestine-net.com/geography/cleansed/

As the 'hero' moshe Dayan said, "Jewish villages were built in the place of Arab villages. You do not even know the names of these Arab villages, and I don't blame you because geography books no longer exist, not only do the books not exist, the Arab villages are not there either. Nahlal arose in the place of Mahlul; Kibbutz Gvat in the place of Jibta; Kibbutz Sarid in the place of Huneifis; and Kefar Yehushu'a in the place of Tal al-Shuman. There is not one single place built in this country that did not have a former Arab population."

Moshe Dayan, in Haifa, quoted by Ha'aretz, April, 4 1969.

redharry
10 July 2008 at 12:06

As for the 'innocents' of Sderot. How innocent are those who occupy stolen property?

http://umkahlil.blogspot.com/2006/11/putting-najd-sderot-ret...

'Sderot was settled by Jews in 1951. According to Walid Khalidi in All That Remains, it along with the settlement of Or ha-Ner, founded in 1957, were established on the village lands of Najd, which means "elevated plain" in Arabic.

Najd's Palestinian villagers, approximately 620 in 1945, were expelled on 13 May 1948, before Israel was declared a state and before any Arab armies entered Palestine.'

I wonder how may of Najd's former residents are now imprisoned in Gaza and attacked on a daily basis by Israeli warplanes and tanks? Something Martin Bright should ponder before repeating Zionist propaganda.

redharry
10 July 2008 at 12:12

From AFP

http://afp.google.com/article/ALeqM5hEjHDXTrs6oHGTnoQSGQfiHM...

Palestinian refugees in Gaza still dream of going home

May 8, 2008

JABALIYA REFUGEE CAMP, Gaza Strip (AFP) — When Israeli soldiers razed his village of Najd during the Jewish state's independence war, Yussef Abu al-Jidyan fled to a Gaza refugee camp where he has now lived for 60 years. But he has never lost hope of returning.

Since 1948, he has lost his home three times in Israeli military operations. The latest was in March when the Israeli army came with bulldozers and levelled houses in Jabaliya refugee camp in the besieged Gaza Strip.

"Since the Jews chased us from Najd during the Naqba of 1948 we haven't had any peace and quiet. Under occupation life is bitter," laments Abu al-Jidyan, who has been a refugee since he was nine years old.

knave
10 July 2008 at 19:07

Morgan nice to see you back.

Can we have a discussion without the threats or insults.

It is an old British tradition.

Also been an old timer, I mean this in the best sense of the word, I don't want you to have stroke.

As they said in the simpsons

"Be nice"

Red harry

My point was that at the time Dayan and Gurion were looked upon as leftists heroes.

Whether they were I don't really know or care.

Morgan097
11 July 2008 at 04:20

knave, old boy.

Ol' Morgie just has to scratch his head in amazement and amusement watching some of these guys performing every mental contortion imaginable trying to explain what the Jewish meanies did to summon forth such hatred.

What everybody refuses to acknowledge is the 800 lb gorilla in the room.

Maybe you'll recall my observation that "Muhammed" had recently become the most popular name given to Dutch newborns.

Guess what:

The identical phenomenon's now occurring throughout Europe.

A sad small joke made the rounds a while ago:

New York cabbie asks passenger with British accent, where passenger comes from. Passenger replies, London. Oh, says cabbie. Sunni or Shiite?

Generations of European lotus eaters grew fat and sassy under the invisible nuclear umbrella of the big, bad US. Eurpean defense spending was diverted to social programs, and less qualified students and teachers for the first time inundated the academy in numbers. You'll usually find that the majority of British Israel-haters don't hail from Oxbridge.

Peer pressure, indoctrination by tenured radicals, the Guardian and Orla, Barbara and Jeremy on the Beeb reinforce a perverse and culturally suicidal Weltanschauung.

If Orla, Barbara or Jeremy were to abandon the proper deference to their often homocidal hosts, they'd probably soon meet with a mysterious accident such as falling from some Gaza rooftop.

For some strange reason, this risk doesn't seem to exist in Tel Aviv.

No, old pal knave.

It's not Israel that's changed. It's British demographics.

The Jewish state, despite some truly idiotic leadership, acts exactly like every other western democracy, trying its best to survive and to provide a safe life for its citizens. And surrounded by some very unsavory neighbors, it does a lot better than all those hypocritical, sanctimonious amnesiacs living in Britain, France, Belgium, Italy, Switzerland and Germany.

Morgan097
11 July 2008 at 07:14

Sorry, knave.

My last sentence should have read:

"... it does a lot better than all those hypocritical, sanctimonious amnesiacs living in HISTORICALLY PRISTINE Britain, France, Belgium, Italy, Switzerland and Germany."

knave
16 July 2008 at 18:29

Morgan you have a lot of anger.

If you think so highly of Israel democratic process. Ship out and live there. I doubt you will.

Personally I prefer Leiden.

Also your shouting again with those capital letter.

Morgan097
17 July 2008 at 10:07

knave, old boy,

Unlike you, I choose to stand and fight in my native land.

Israel was never intended to be the only Jewish refuge.

Just one where for the first time in two millenia Jews could, if they so wished, defend themselves from pogroms, Einsatzgruppen and Islamic holy warriors.

Since you identify so closely with the Arab cause, and since, of course, the only land that Muslims didn't subjugate by the sword was their original hole in the Arabian peninsula, why don't you leave cosmopolitan Leiden and become a legal resident of Riyadh?

Unless, of course, you're Jewish.

Judenrein, you know.

Like the 22 or so Arab host countries that forcibly expelled their 800,000 to a million Jewish residents, many with roots dating back thousands of years.

But you know the Muslim credo, knave, old bean:

"What's mine is mine.

What's yours is negotiable."

knave
18 July 2008 at 00:23

"Just one where for the first time in two millenia Jews could, if they so wished, defend themselves from pogroms, Einsatzgruppen and Islamic holy warriors."

Also crusaders and Richard 1 but still get out there Morgan. Put your life on the line for boys of the star.

Morgan097
18 July 2008 at 01:57

Been there, done that.

But not for just one star -- for 50, in fact.

One nation, under God, indivisible.

With liberty and justice for all.

Israel represents the American experience in microcosm.

Free and democratic, it alone among nations, resists continuous assault upon its very existence by the forces of darkness which you apparently support.

Find me just one -- repeat -- one Arab enity (with the possible exception of a nascent American-liberated Iraq) that is neither dictatorship, feudal monarchy or terrorist fiefdom.

And knave, old pal.

I now offer to you the same challenge I made to tag:

Demonstrate your faith and confidence in Muslim loyalty to the British values of free speech and open debate.

Appear publicly at any mosque -- Leiden or London are equally acceptable venues -- before a Dutch or British Muslim audience, and then with graphic illustrations put forth the proposition that the rights of all free men include the right without fear of violent reaction, to publish sometimes unflattering portrayals of their prophet Muhammed.

The wolf is already at the British door.

For continental Europe it's already too late.

Morgan097
18 July 2008 at 03:53

knave, old pal,

Let's take time out from sparring for a moment to dispassionately examine the implications of your jibe that I'd be making some horrible sacrifice by moving to Israel. which I respect and admire for its individual freedoms, intellectual dynamism, technological brilliance, cultural and economic vitality and national fortitude in the face of permanent existential threat.

After decades of misrepresentations, lies and deceptions perpetrated by the terrorist-worshipping, leftist-dominated British mainstream media, it's hardly surprising that you've actually come to believe this unadulterated crap.

Tell the saps long enough that the sun revolves around the earth, and the little darlings will reflexively barbecue the first dissenter.

Americans were astounded when a poll revealed the depth of British ignorance about the Jewish state.

The UK respondents actually found North Korea, Liberia, the Sudan (Darfur), Zimbabwe, Afghanistan, Libya, Syria, Yemen, Iran (and every other state) more congenial potential residential destinations than Israel.

Americans who have vacationed, worked or retired there found the British findings both amusing and pathetic.

Based not on the efforts of Orla, Babs and Jeremy but on testimony of those who know and love the country, Israeli residency is probably among the world's greatest privileges.

If you should doubt this proposition, I beseech you to privately ask any Israeli Arab citizen under which Arab government or "liberation organization" he'd prefer to live.

I believe your

Morgan097
18 July 2008 at 03:57

Kindly pardon my unintentional inclusion of the last three words.