Sian Berry

55 comments from readers

Derek Bennett
19 June 2008 at 15:18

Every time I read or hear about our once sovereign country being in trouble for breaking EU law, I despair. Why sould we as a nation do as we are told by an anti-democratic, unelected bunch of EU bureaucrats?

Our elected politicians simply do as they are told by this elite, and pay the fines the EU levies upon us with British taxpayers money if they contravene EU law - this is an outrage. It's time we left the EU - all the benefts are out of the EU - not in it.

greenladywell
19 June 2008 at 16:33

Would the EU directive have come from the (unelected and undemocratic) European Commission or the democratically elected parliament? I don't know what the answer is, but I don't think we should confuse the two, not least because it lets our MEPs off the hook.

Well done Sian and the 4x4 campaign for your work on this. Could you now find an EU law that says car adverts must show cars sitting in traffic jams on polluted streets and not always out in the middle of nowhere with not another car on the road ;)

left888
19 June 2008 at 22:58

You know how tobacco adverts started having a few tentative warnings stuck on the bottom in the 80s, then bigger stronger warnings, and then they got banned altogether........

There's hope yet!

Oh, and Derek, the MEPs are elected on a slightly fairer system than the MPs. People who talk about Westminster govt. having a democratic mandate to do precisely what they like should maybe reflect on the fact that our govt at the next election is projected to be decided by less than 1% of the electorate. And that the current bunch of morons only got voted in by 22% of the British electorate. And that our PM is unelected - even his own party didn't really vote for him... The list goes on.

Anyone up for a revolution? (in a radical left direction)

In the meantime, green party is our best chance 4 real progress

alexlockwood
20 June 2008 at 07:58

agree with comments here. well done, this is no small achievement.

the general press coverage of this issue has to be to turn it into an 'And Finally' joke at the end of news programmes, and to valorize the hard done-by advertising industry. Who are not a weak lobby. So to get this through is fantastic.

I'd suggest this won't be the last word, at least creatively. Ad executives are seeing this already as a new challenge. Rob Lawrence, ad director at Avenue A, for example, also likens it to the cigarette legislation, saying this heralded in one of the most creative periods of advertising. Not the response hoped for...

Alex Lockwood

Green Man
20 June 2008 at 11:43

Sian,

They have had SMOKING KILLS on cigarette packets for many years, doesn't stop you wanting to have a fag though, does it!

Car manufacterers have been developing Electric/Hybrid technology since before you were born, Electric/Hybrid vehicles will become more common once the technology is refined and made more affordable. The fuel crisis of the 70's instigated research and develpoment in this direction. Please don't try to take the credit that the AAU4X4 brought this about because you haven't, it was happening anyway. The Prius was alrady developed before the AAU4X4 was off the ground.

Regarding you're piece above, Friends of the Earth instigated and did all the work so why are you trying to take the credit.

Oh by the way the Cross Party NGO you refer to in your previous post is the London Assembly members, why are you trying to mislead people you're part of this when you're not.

Jo Valentine
20 June 2008 at 14:59

Left888

"anyone up for a revolution (in a radical left direction)"

Hmm, if Sian can't find enough people to vote for her I doubt she'll be able to find enough for a Revolution.

Very amusing though...

...Citizen Smith anyone LOL

sianberry
20 June 2008 at 16:07

I don't know about you, but I'm starting to find 'Geen Man' rather sinister. He does seem to think he knows an awful lot of wrong things about my work. Hmmmm.

Actually, the bulk of the credit for this change has to go to my colleague Blake Ludwig, Managing Director of the Alliance Against Urban 4x4s. He has been leading this issue in the UK for a long time. First of all getting complaints into the ASA, then identifying the problem with the guidelines and writing to the DfT late last year. It was when we got a lame answer from them that he brought in the lawyers from FoE to help us work out the next step, which was to force the DfT to set a reasonable timescale for the review, and this speeded up the process a lot and resulted in yesterday's news. FoE's input therefore was absolutely vital, but the 4x4 campaign was vital too.

And the 'cross-party' part of the 'cross-party, cross-NGO initiative' I mentioned last week is in fact local councillors and other non-AMs in London. For example, we had the postcards to Boris available on every local party stall at Camden Green Fair earlier this month (except the Tory one, of course). The postcards and letters themselves have been designed and printed by the Alliance and are hosted on our website. London Assembly Members have other ways of challenging the Mayor with difficult questions, as Geen Man should probably know.

The tobacco point is an issue that I would like to tackle , as it's come up on other forums too. It's true that many people do still smoke despite a complete ban on advertising, but we aren't trying to stamp out cars or deter people from buying them altogether, so the analogy isn't really right.

On the other hand though, the appearance of tar and nicotine values on cigarette adverts did help drive a big increase in sales of 'light' brands in the 1980s and 1990s.

Naturally, the idea that smoking a 'light' fag is in any way healthier turned out to be a huge fallacy, but the the idea that a low-CO2 car is lower in CO2 emissoins is not. So, we do hope that the inclusion of this info will help people choose cleaner cars and drive the market towards smaller, lower-emission vehicles.

Of course, changing patterns of car-use, to get people using other modes like walking, cycling and public transport for more journeys, especially short ones, is another challenge altogether. But if this move helps to get the cars we do use to be lower in CO2 it will be something along the way.

The Green Man
20 June 2008 at 17:03

Why is criticism sinister?

Good point though, if Ludwig deserves bulk of the credit, why not mention him in your post?

While we're on it you can hardly dish out a few postcards and call it a "Cross Party NGO initiative" although in your dreamworld yes you probably can, more hot air so you can justify who you are, or rather who think you are.

Manufacturers have already been driving down emissions for some time, as I said the Mark 1 Prius was developed long before your "campaign" so please stop trying to take the credit for something that was happening anyway.

Sorry to keep bursting your bubble Sian but you're past your sell by date. For all your rhetoric you don't really achieve anything positive and your making being "Green" into a dirty word with this constant negative campaigning.

sianberry
20 June 2008 at 17:34

So you're the same person as Geen Man? Curiouser and curiouser...

Green Man
21 June 2008 at 06:40

Sian, please don't divert attention from the issues or the points I've raised, why not debate them here...

blakeludwig
21 June 2008 at 10:30

Dear Green Man

Thanks for all of your support. However I don't feel you have much integrity because you don't reveal your real identity. If you have something genuine to say to Sian , stand up and be counted. Be a man. Anyone of us can sit and criticize.

It's true that I have taken personal interest in researching and developing this part of our campaign for some time, whilst Sian was running for Mayor. I became particularly interested as I was discovering how widespread noncompliance was, even across Europe, by the auto industry. What I have found more interesting is that even though people knew it was happening no one has challenged the government before on this (could it be that the government bowed to pressure from the SMMT / DTI / Advertising agencies? We don't know but we will find out).

With the added (and very generous) help (pro bono) offered to us by barristers and solicitors we have now seen the VCA (DfT) cave in under public pressure. We'll be looking next to see how they enforce the change, and we'll make certain the SMMT and the automakers understand what the law requires them to do - all CO2 and fuel economy information has to be prominently visible (to passing motorists if a billboard) and easy to read (ie; not upside down or hidden away).

Green Man
21 June 2008 at 19:19

Well I am honoured to be in the presence of both Bonnie and Clyde!

Ludwig did you think by repeating you post twice it would somehow give it extra gravitas?

But seeing as you ask Ludwig my integrity isn't in question as I have no intention of running for public office, neither is my identity relevant for the same reason. This is a blog, even our hostesses fan club use pseudonyms on here, even your AAU4X4 Donkeys protest wearing masks. Why should it matter who I am, are you planning to target me for daring to blow the lid on the sleazier side of the AAU4X4?

But just for the record I am standing up to be counted which is why I'm here, adding my point of view because I can. After all why not? We've all heard quite enough from Sian over the last few months. But I have to say Ludwig for someone whose stock in trade is criticising others so voiciferously you don't like it much when someone has a pop at you. After all you and Sian are the unelected voice of protest, not me.

Just for the record the SMMT, which for those that don't know are the Society for Motor Manufacturers and Traders represent the Motor Industry in this country, it's their job to safeguard jobs and ensure our Motor Industry competes on the world stage, we all actually benefit from this, even you. Do you really think they care about the likes of you bleating on about non compliance, who are you anyway? Nobody elected you and you don't work in the motor industry. What is it you really want? Would it make you happy to bring the motor industry to it's knees and the catastrophic consequences to peoples jobs and our economy that this would entail? Have you ever stopped to think for a minute about the thousands of families or our international trade that relies on the Motor Industry? I doubt it, all you and Sian care about is the sound of your own voices, as if you matter. In addition, and correct me if I'm wrong but I don't know any policy in the manifesto of the Green Party that dictates that a prosperous industry should go to the wall as you seem to be pushing for.

You speak of non compliance, hardly. Basicly the advertising for cars didn't use as larger letters as some EU directive says they should, that's it. So what, are you and Sian so narrow minded that all you can do is spend your precious time looking at the detail in the hope of catching someone out so you can make a point. How is this gong to save the planet? Do you really think industry chiefs are going to warm to some tin pot crusaid that dictates with such breathtaking arrogance.

You speak of Barristers and Solicitors, I wonder what sort of cars they drive? Haven't met a Solicitor or Barrister yet who doesn't have at least 8 cylinders under their bonnets.

Finally, "You'll make sure the SMMT and "automakers" understand what the law requires them to do" Have you heard yourself, since when were you qualified to dictate the Law to anybody?

So there we have it, more hot air and very little substance. Where will it end?

left888
22 June 2008 at 11:32

@ The Green Man

So, according to U, Sian isn't qualified to keep an eye and make sure that the law is enforced?

Last time I looked, it was every citizen's duty to help the course of justice. Ever heard of citizens arrest, for example? If AAU4X4 didn't have a incredibly sound judicial base, their High Court challenge wouldn't have been passed. Do U realise how few of these cases actually get decided in the pressure groups' favour? For this one to win, the case must have been really black-and-white.

And just for the record, the judges are also unelected. According to you, this means that the entire criminal justice system is illegitimate?

So there we have it, more hot air and very little substance. Where will it end? :p

left888
22 June 2008 at 11:33

Sorry, replace the word "qualified" with "entitled"

Green Man
22 June 2008 at 11:55

Left888

I actually said Ludwig wasn't qualified to dictate the Law, after all he is an unemployed IT consultant, he's not a Lawyer and has no working or professional qualifications in the Motor Trade.

High Court challenge??? please check your facts. It was only a solicitors letter refering to a 1999 EU directive, nothing more.

Course of justice??? Citizens arrests??? Judges???

Criminal justice, illigitimate??? Sorry you've lost me here, your the one the that wants a revolution after all so maybe this is your view but it certainly isn't mine.

Green Man
22 June 2008 at 12:12

Left888, replace "qualified" with "entitled"???

Maybe Sian and Ludwig would be a lttle more entitled as you put it when they get proper jobs and contribute fully to society.

The electorate expressed their wishes on May 1st, the majority don't want her or her policies, so who is she really speaking for anyway? A few Leftys in Camden with chips on their shoulder banging on about a "Revolution". Time to grow up, join the real world.

Jane Greene
22 June 2008 at 12:41

Green Man is Richard Barnbrook and therefore scarcely a man at all. Sending pictures of Little Richard around! Honestly.

Green Man
22 June 2008 at 13:01

Jane, I'm certainly not Richard Barnbrook. I very much doubt Sian and her 4x4 campaign is on his radar, why would it be? His political viewpoint from what I understand is on a different level completely.

My point of view is very clear and I haven't expressed any views that could be confused with the BNP. It is possible for someone to have another point of view and express it, that is what this blog is for after all.

Andrew
23 June 2008 at 09:20

Green Man

You're right on many levels, the Stop Urban 4x4 campaign is very negative and only targets a small amount of the Emissions problem in our cities. What Sian Berry and Co fail to mention is the Saloon cars with large engines the Chauffeur companies use including our Government or Sports cars that only seat two people and have even larger engines and therefore greater CO2 that do just as much harm. In addition the many White Vans and older less maintained cars that cause greater damage with polution. An old Ford poorly maintained gives out greater CO2 than a brand new Land Rover. It certainly looks like the group wish to victimise those that have large families, dogs, boats or horses and therefore need a suitable vehicle. I'm uncomfotable with fact they only wish to target the Middle classes and as a Middle Class Green Party supporter I would rather this dictatorial style of campaigning wasn't carried out in my name.

Shouldn't the main issue be an individuals Carbon Footprint anyway? If people reduce theirs in other areas why shouldn't they have the car they choose? While most of these vehicles may live in London during the week and possibly rarely used, aren't they purchased for weekend activity's out of London where their additional capabilities are required. Surely it makes sense to have one car that does everything you want it to do rather than several. Fair enough a Hummer is a bit ridiculous but why bother campaigning outside a Hummer Dealership when they only sell very few cars to Premiership Footballers who have several cars anyway. What is the motive when the target is so insignificant? Remember Vegan 4x4 driver is greener than Meat eating Cyclist.

While we're considering an individuals Carbon Footprint I wonder how many times Blake Ludwig travels back to the United States? Also how much does this individual with no regular source of income cost the taxpayer?

Jane Greene
23 June 2008 at 10:29

I think it was your obnoxious and chippy tone Green Man. If you're not Richard Barnbrook you should try to curb it because you certainly sound like a BNP supporter! By the way are you posting under a number of names? It's just that the tone is replicated and the timing of the sudden and very personal attacks by a number of posters is rather coincidental...

Green Man
23 June 2008 at 10:49

Jane

The only person on here who's using an obnoxious and chippy tone is you. To accuse someone you've never met to be a BNP supporter because they don't share your Ideal is rather short sighted. Furthermore it is ridiculous and to suggest they "curb it" when you're the one dishing out the aggression is why I'm on here in the first place.

Yes I use two email account attached to the New Statesman, one using my work email and one my personal, both are entitled Green Man. If I'm in my office I use one and if I'm home the other, I'm sure I'm not the only one who does this.

If my posts are allowing others to speak out and join the debate then great that is what we are here for. Like many I'm concerned about the aggressive stance some individuals are taking in the name of the Green Party and you have proved those concerns to be valid.

I've invited Sian and Ludwig to join the debate, what are they affraid of?

Green Man
23 June 2008 at 11:02

In addition Jane:

The timing as you put it is hardly coincidental, Sian lost the Election in May and as a result I think people were unhappy with the direction Sian was taking the party in, after all she was becoming the "Face" of the Green party and promised a great deal yet failed to deliver anything of substance. Furthermore Sian was largely unheard of outside Green circles prior to the Mayoral campaign, that is no longer the case, after all she's attacking some Londoners with her campaign therefore it should be no surprise that she will at some stage be on the receiving end.

Jane Greene
23 June 2008 at 11:47

Why don't you just say who you really are instead of hiding behind your joke title? If I come across as angry - obnoxious and chippy I leave to you - it's because of the ad hominem nature of the attacks on Sian Berry. You might not realise but when someone has dedicated all their time to fighting an election which they then lose it's completely bad form to start rubbing it in. Fine you say you aren't a BNP person - your tone sure makes you sound like one. But why are you trying to knife Sian who has done more to raise the profile of the Greens than almost anyone else? It's you who's being aggressive - and personal. Berry's campaign is about 4WD but she also campaigns on local businesses, airports you name it... Any campaign about any excessive behaviour is bound to anger one group or another. Disagree with the target of the campaign by all means but why the nasty personal attacks?

Green Man
23 June 2008 at 12:46

Jane nobody is hiding, I don't know who you are as you don't know me, this is anonymous blog which is how it works, only Sian is the Celebrity here. Also by reading some of the comments on this site there are others that feel similar, please don't suggest I'm the only one because it's very clear I'm not. Sadly for Sian that's Politics I'm affraid, you have to take the rough with the smooth.

It's clear you like Sian and appreciate her work which I respect. I think I've made it clear I don't, in particular I think her 4x4 campaign is short sighted, aggresive and damaging to the Green cause. Furthermore it appears to have been adopted by some unsavoury types which will no doubt further damage the Green Party's reputation. There are now more than a few class hating ex-fox hunting saboteurs with time on their hands who have adopted Sians cause and are using more and more aggresive tactics. I feel Sian must accept some responsibility for as the creater of the movement in this country.

We're hypocritical if we say we don't need cars in todays society, larger estates, 4x4's and people carriers are very useful to all of us at some stage even Sian. To create a stigma against drivers regardless of their circumstances is very short sighted and damaging. Shall we label all airline passengers as enviromental terrorist too?

Sian and Ludwig have made targets out of people who have a family car. To suggest to these people to buy a Prius if they've got four kids, a dog and any other of the paraphernalia that family's have thesedays is just ridiculous. Also her actions have meant motoring is now more expensive for most of us regardless of what we drive. The idea of "Green Taxes" has been abused by Gordon Brown and Sian has in my belief added fuel to the fire by encouraging extra taxation and inf;ated congestion charge. Also people are less inclined to listen if they feel they are being dictated to which has a negative effect rather than a positive one. As it happens the credit crunch and fuel crisis has done more to reduce cars sales in 6 months than Sian campaign has done in 4 years which says she hasn't been as successful as she would like us to think.

Finally I believe in Democracy, if Sian had won a seat or even become Mayor she would have my full respect and support as it is what the majority wants. That isn't the case yet she still wants to force through her viewpoint even though the electorate have said no. Sian should respect what the majority have voted for which in the case of London happens to be Boris. Sian may have been a great Mayor, that we'll never know, what I am please about is that the Socialist mini-state Ken was creating has been halted and we hopefully we can have our great city back. What is to be celebrated about London is that everybody can live side by side regardless of what they drive or what colour they are. If you choose to live in the Capital then you must accept this, anything else is just discrimination which is unacceptable in todays society on any level. Sian and Ludwig are guily of a type of discrimination which makes her stlye of politics closer to Richard Barnbrooks than mine could ever be.

Jane Greene
23 June 2008 at 13:53

You haven't got a green bone in your body, have you? Nor are you remotely consistent in the views you express. You say you believe in democracy. Well democracy does not begin and end at election time - you keep campaigning regardless of the outcome. I don't see Sian taking up arms over the result - in what way hasn't she accepted it? Do you think David Cameron should shut the hell up? Should Michael Howard, IDS and the rest? The only reason I'm asking you to front up and say who you really are is that you are parading as something you are not: someone who supports the Greens. Not only that but the cheap way you are going about it is offensive. As for the tired discrimination argument - well the first recourse of the BNP is to claim victimhood. 4WDs driven in London are entirely superfluous to requirements - to claim that campaigning against excessive consumption is equivalent to race hatred is beyond disingenuous. Don't you see that a campaign against more runways is equivalent? There are finite resources on this earth the way we use them matters. What about the next generation's right to a share? Or are you happy to discriminate against them? With one breath you attack Sian as being ineffective, with the next you blame her for Gordon Brown's curious tax system. God, talk about muddled thinking.

Green Man
23 June 2008 at 14:34

Jane,

Your being offensive, can we keep this on the level, I don't make assumptions about you and would be grateful if you don't make them about me, including who I am.

Please don't make sweeping statements about my politics either, It is possible to be Green and live in the real world. This blog is about Sian anyway, not me. She chooses to be here and write in a format that invites comments from readers. Are you suggesting I'm not allowed on here because you don't like what I say?

As you mentioned David Cameron, Michael Howard and IDS, they are all elected members of Parliament therefore it is their job. That's how democracy works. If everyone used direct action as Sian does to force their viewpoint on others we'd have Anarchy.

"4WDs driven in London are entirely superfluous to requirements" Another sweeping statement, which neither you or Sian can substantiate. What are you meant to drive on a building site a Mini?

Discrimnination is discrimination however you dress it up and regardless of the motives however well intenioned.

As for the campaign against runways, yes at last! this is infinately more important than the AAU4X4. The biggest threat today is Airtravel not some mum on the school run. My point exactly, why are we on here discussing some 1999 EU Directive on car advertising. When Air polution and the Heathrow expansion is a much bigger threat.

I never said Sian was ineffective, your words not mine although I do feel she has gone in the wrong direction and paid the price. Losing the election is fact and you can't blame me for that. Sian has been very influential on vehicle taxation. Although a recent Green Party statement indicated they didn't agree and that this Government hadn't done enough to encourage greener motoring and as a result had damaged the concept of greener taxes by raising road tax across the board.

Green Man
23 June 2008 at 15:04

Jane, quick question, are you really Sian using a different name?

Jane Greene
23 June 2008 at 15:07

How many 4WDs in London go on building sites let alone off road? It's just such rubbish that you're writing. And are you seriously saying that you're only allowed to campaign if you're elected? Absolute twaddle! What was that about living in the real world? How about tackling excessive consumption at EVERY turn? That includes flights, that includes high-emitting cars. Perhaps it should include the hot air you talk too! Stop pretending you are Green - you're not.

Jane Greene
23 June 2008 at 15:08

No Richard I'm not.

Derek Bennett
23 June 2008 at 15:20

Left888 is under the delusion that the EU is a democratic organisation and seems to know little of the jobs and the purpose of its MEPs. I have been to the European Parliament in Brussels and seen them in action – what a sight to behold it is too.

The first thing you have to remember is, although MEPs are elected by proportional representation (the fairer system), these MEPs actually have very little power and influence. They do not make laws, their only functions are to give the impression that the EU is a democratic organisation, the other is to vote on the legislation made by the EU Commission.

Debates in the EU Parliament are strictly timed and limited to around 1 to two minutes only per MEP, unlike our Parliament where MPs can debate the issues fully. When the votes are taken in the EU Parliament they are done en-masse. It is a regular occurrence for MEPs to get through around 200 pieces of legislation and amendments in just over an hour of frantic voting.

Although the Parliament has an electronic voting system, all votes are by a show of hands. The President of the Parliament (Mr Speaker) declares the decision and hurtles on to the next item non-stop. Occasionally an MEP shouts “Check” if they query the vote which is retaken using the electronic voting system – most times the result is the opposite to that declared by the President. Added to that, with MEPs having to listen to translations in their ear pieces they often vote the wrong way as they are voting on the item which was up a few second previously due to the time translation time lag – the whole thing is a mess and left888 thinks this to be more democratic than our Parliament!

May I suggest you do a bit of research about how the EU works before you sound off in support of it in future Mr or Mrs left888, there is nothing democratic about the EU.

Green Man
23 June 2008 at 15:34

"How many 4WDs in London go on building sites let alone off road?"....Don't know, neither do you or Sian. Why are you making assumptions when you haven't got a clue. We live in a free society, fortunately people arn't required to check in with you or Sian before they make a decision. If you don't like what a free society represents how about a one way ticket to Zimbabwe, they'd love you.

Sian can campaign till she's blue in the face (or should that be green), nobody is stopping her although it may have a negative effect. What she campaigns about has a baring on her chances of being elected though. She can ignore what people say and stay in the political wilderness or she can accept she made a few wrong turns and change direction. If all she can do is suggest taxes are raised then she'll never win an election. Furthermore by validating an aggressive campaign like the AAU4X4 she risks damaging other Green candidates chances of election too.

It is possible to suggest the Carrot to encourage a change in consumption rather than the Stick. It's about being realistic, Cars Trains and Planes are part of the world we live in, you live in a fantasy world if you can't accept this.

Jane Greene
23 June 2008 at 15:53

Free societies also have rules. As well as rules there are other mechanisms like public attitudes which influence people's conduct and the fuel duty escalator - when they bother implementing it. I'm not trying to say governments should ban cars or ban planes - stop trying to project a such a ridiculous perspective on to me. And of course incentives play a huge part in changing behaviour but so do direct action and targeted campaigns. The idea that Sian isn't yet elected because of the 4WD campaign is utterly baseless. You're just a very silly person who is using Sian's blog (on which you are a commentor not a blogger by the way) to attack her for reasons which you won't disclose. The reasons are certainly not your 'Green' politics.

Jane Greene
23 June 2008 at 15:55

Oh and by the way one of the reasons I object to 4WDs in London is they clog up the roads for other drivers, cyclists etc. - including me. They also cause more wear and tear because of their weight - another reason the drivers should be hit with prohibitive taxes.

Green Man
23 June 2008 at 17:18

Your notion that taxes will change behaviour is a nonsense. It hasn't stopped people drinking or smoking and by making drugs illegal hasn't stopped that either. By promoting taxation as the answer your forcing the wheels of the cog to turn even faster to pay for it. This is basic economics. The dreamworld assumption that Sian can convince Gordon to tax the naughty drivers more and they'll all stop driving is complete rubbish, it doesn't work and Gordon will lose the General election on the car tax issue if nothing else, even his own party don't agree with him on this one.

Direct action plays a part when it's kept under control, unfortuately Sians peaceful, informative campaign has been adopted by some darker forces working on it's behalf. This doesn't make Sian or the Party look credible.

Reasons which I won't disclose? I think I've disclosed all of my reasons very clearly in all of my posts. I don't agree with agressive direct action and additional taxation as the answer to the issue. The British taxpayer is cracking under the strain, either you pay tax or you don't. If you don't then you are part of the problem not the solution.

4WD's clog up the roads for other drivers? 100 Toyata Prius's would created the same traffic jam as 100 Range Rovers. A smart car would kill a pedestrian at 40mph just the same as a 4WD. The arguements don't stack up. To single out one group of people and blame all of the problems of the road onto them is ridiculous which is why this campaign is causing Sian and the Greens by association to be a laughing stock.

A cyclist riding on the pavement killed a little girl last week, do you want these banned to?

Prohibitive taxes just means more taxes for all of us as Gordon has proved with his tax by stealth road tax rises. I'm quite sure the Chelsea lot don't give toss if it costs them a few hundred quid a year more but the average man in the street with his Mondeo that he uses to drive to the Supermarket once a week is affected. When Sian Berry comes knocking next time asking for his vote he'll tell her where to go, as he did in the last election.

Green Man
23 June 2008 at 17:32

The wear and tear on the roads is caused by 44 tonne Lorries and Buses. To blame the pot holes on someone driving a 1.5 tonne vehicle when a 44 tonne vehicle uses the same road doesn't stack up either.

sianberry
23 June 2008 at 23:01

Jane,

Thanks for the support, long after I gave up engaging with the multiply-anonymous botherer!

Just to confirm, he is definitely the same person as "Are the Greens just socialists under another name", from previous blogs, and so is probably several others as well.

Next week I'm planning to write about eco-towns, so I expect we'll hear how I can't comment on them because I live in teepee, or some such nonsense.

Sian

Green Man
24 June 2008 at 07:07

As Jane Greene is you Sian...

...Have you ever engaged with anyone that doesn't subsrcribe to your point of view?

Yes I think your a socialist posing as a Green campaigner and I said so, I'm glad you highlighted this point. (You can change the title of a responding blog at any time on here, you can even change "sianberry" into "Jane Greene").

I'm also delighted to hear you're writing about Eco Towns, lets hope your research is a little more thorough than the other issues you tackle so voiciferously.

The sad thing is Sian I came on here and challenged your point of view, rather than face up to the challenge you hid and ignored the issues raised. You claim to be the friend of the small business in London when you don't have a clue. You blindly campaign against family cars when your arguement falls flat when challenged. To accuse someone of being a BNP supporter when they offer a different point of view is plain childish. You discriminate, not me.

Far from being the best hope the Greens have got you're actually their biggest problem.

Jane Greene
24 June 2008 at 09:50

Yawn, I'm genuinely called Jane Greene - it's not a soubriquet. And let's go through it - although, because I'm not being paid by the taxpayer, so I'll have to leave it there and crack on with work.

1. You're seriously not saying that the numbers of smokers haven't decreased and that high taxes played haven't at least a part in that? I'm a former smoker and the waste of money was a factor - as were the health messages and so on.

2. The drugs point has no connection in this context. Unless you are saying people could drive 4WDs if they were banned without anyone noticing. In fact I believe in legalisation of drugs because the other approach hasn't worked.

3. Direct action works when it is kept under control? Such a silly point it isn't worth addressing.

4. Volvo XC90, for example, weighs more than two tonnes and is driven down residential streets in the way lorries routinely are not. They are much harder to pass. They cause more wear and tear. This is just common sense.

5. Your cyclist point is too childish for words

6. Mondeo man never voted Green. He was a Thatcherite then he became a Blairite. You don't understand much about politics do you?

7. There is nothing wrong with being a Democratic Socialist.

8. If you're not very cleve it's not your fault but you have to recognise you limitations.

9. I'm going to have to concentrate on putting some effort into work now.

10. No I'm not Sian Berry.

Green Man
24 June 2008 at 13:32

Ok Sian or Jane, whatever!

1) The reduction in Smoking is attributed to the Smoking Cessation support offered on the NHS along with advances in Nicotine Replacement Therapy and anti smoking drugs now available. It is recognised by this Government and previous Governments that the taxes weren't working in detering smokers which is why the Stop Smoking campaign was given the go ahead.

2) Ok so you think legalising Drugs is a good thing but a mum can't pick up her four kids from School in a suitable car. Okay!

3) Direct action works when it's kept under control, not such a silly point, Sian or Ludwig have little control over the actions of some of it's protesters. Take a recent scenario: A hundred or so prep school children are waiting at the school gates to be collected by their mums when four AAU4X4 protesters disguised in costumes descend whooping and jeering at some of the mothers collecting their children. As a result many children were crying and scared. What kind of introduction to the Green party does this give them? How can Sian protest that it's all in the name of future generations when she can't even show today's children common courtesy. Not such a silly point really and well worth addressing, it's out of control.

4) Wherever a Volvo XC90 can go a 7.5 Tonne truck can go too. Our roads are designed to withstand many more Tonnes, when they are properly maintained that is.

5) A little girl was killed by a cyclist, either you protest on the basis it's for the good of humankind or not. Do you think the little girls patents think her death was "childish" Oh but she was killed by a cyclist so that's ok is it? If it was a Volvo XC90 no doubt Sian and Co would have been there banner waiving shouting murderer, convenience politics. Hypocrites!

6) Mondeo man is the Electoral Barometer, if you can't reach him or understand him then it's a wasted deposit everytime. If the party seriously isn't interested

in widening it's appeal then what is the point?

7) Then own up to it Sian.

8) Don't patronise me. It only reflects badly on you.

9) Work, is that what they call it, if you hurry you can catch the DSS before they shut.

10) Yep, I believe you.

Jane Greene
24 June 2008 at 15:59

Sian, I'm bowing out of this one. Just to say, I for one am grateful for the personal sacrifices you make to dedicate yourself to this cause. I know you won't allow cretinous misogyny to knock you off course. And it occurs to me that of the people attacking you on this site some might be BNP. Some also might be working for the pro-car lobby. Either way they're not the brightest, are they?

Green Man
24 June 2008 at 17:45

Sian/Jane,

If you're political ambitions are serious then I suggest you behave like a politician, you're making John Prescot look eloquent.

Regarding personal sacrifices it's your choice what you do. However to wrongly label someone a misogyny when your chosen target is mothers collecting their children from school says that's more your style than mine.

It is ridiculous to suggest that someone who doesn't agree with your political stance is the BNP. That demonstrates how short sighted you really are.

You've made a career out of attacking others even though in most cases you know nothing about their circumstances. To do this under the facade of Green politics is fraud.

Andrew
25 June 2008 at 10:15

Whether people agree with him or not Mr. Green Man has made some very interesting points, it's a shame Sian hasn't responded in an appropriate manner.

Andrew Newbury.

left888
25 June 2008 at 20:44

Derek, I do realise that the EU isn't particularly democratic, I only said that it was *slightly* more democratic than the UK parliamentary system, where the outcome is determined by about 1% of voters, swing voters in key marginals.

Oh and Green Man, your claim that only people who actually have a job are entitled to partake in the political process seems very backward to me; would you rather go back to the days when having a hearth was a qualification for voting? Are you saying that there should be a no-platform policy for anyone not in work? The whole idea of universal suffrage is that anyone over the age of 18 (should be 16) can participate (at least in theory).

And if any candidate who was defeated at an election wasn't allowed to speak out between this election and the next, then you would have the same person representing the seat until death/retirement, since only the sitting politician would be able to propoganda/inform the constituents. An election is supposed to be a multi-way process...

Green Man
26 June 2008 at 12:10

Left888

My only concern is those that don't earn a regular income and as a result don't pay regular tax suggesting how those that do pay tax. I think it is wrong that they should be lobbying government to increase the tax burden for those that work when some avoid contributing fully to the public purse. In short when a Socialist falls down they expect a Capitalist to pick them up.

Of course Sian can speak up although she clearly resents my contribution here which is why my posts keep getting deleted. I've been called a BNP/Richard Barnbrook, a cretinous misogynist etc. etc. all which have remained on here yet are hosts don't allow any straight talking from anyone else.

It is particularly wrong that Sian chooses to involve Mothers and Children when demonstrating. Our children should be protected as much as possible and targeting schools is scandalous. Unfortunately were are still awaiting Sian to respond to this.

Thank for your input though.

sianberry
27 June 2008 at 00:15

Green Man

The simple answer is I've been to Croatia twice, which you could have worked out for yourself..

And the deletions are nothing to do with me. Must be that you insist on being tediously rude and irrelevant with so many of your contributions to the debate. http://newstatesman.com/blogs/ben-davies/2008/06/commentors-...

Sian

Green Man
27 June 2008 at 07:15

Sian,

I'm wasn't discussing Croatia, please address Felicity above. I'm not interested in your holiday plans.

As to the debate you've avoided addressing most of the points and "Jane Greene" has been rather rude to me yet that hasn't been deleted, (neither do I want it to be btw.) so the censorship is clearly biased towards protecting your reputation.

As for being a "botherer" as you put it, I'm only doing to you what you have done to some motorists, i.e. force your uninvited opinion because someone doesn't live within your warped ideal. I may have been sharp with my comments however as you're the person who has taken upon herself to tar certain motorists with the same brush as a drink driver I feel it is deserved.

The basis of your campaign however well intentioned is flawed. It is damaging to British industry and the Party you represent. Also some protesters engage in crime in order to make their point which is unacceptable, as this is a reflection on you it could affect your political aspirations, som you stand to lose more than me.

JamesB
03 July 2008 at 15:13

What is warped about wanting to get rid of urban 4X4s? It was on the tely the other day (on fifth gear, a car program!) that there is research which suggests if a small car hits a Range Rover style car, the passengers in the small car are TWENTY FOUR times more likely to die. That is just plain selfishness.

Maybe you can explain yhy people need cars that weigh over 2 tonnes Green Man?

Green Man
04 July 2008 at 15:51

Hi James,

There is nothing warped about some people wanting to get rid of urban 4x4s, what is warped is the way some "activists" go about it in the name of the Green party. Demonstrating outside schools in fancy dress scaring our children is pretty warped though.

Encouraging people to drive lower emission cars is slightly more positive than trying to vandalise drivers out of their choice of car don't you think?

Yes I'm aware of the safety argument, it's a very interesting one, who is really selfish though, the man that protects his family in a 4x4 or the one that throws caution to the wind and takes them out in a small hatchback? Is the Range Rover driver supposed to put the wellfare of the anonymous Hatchback family before his own family? What if a Lorry hits the Range Rover?

I can't explain why people need a car that weighs over 2 tonnes without asking everybody, which neither me, you or Sian are able to do. An educated guess would say they want one car that does everything rather than several, perhaps they tow a boat, caravan or horsebox. They may need a seven seater or maybe they want the safety you spoke of earlier, after all it's our own responsibility to protect ourselves.

Finally London has many Cars, Taxis, Limos, Vans, Lorrys etc. all weighing over 2 tonnes, should these be banned too? Why only pick one type of car, primarily driven by middle class families?

taghioff.info
05 July 2008 at 01:45

@Green Man

1) Marking the CO2 emissions on car ads does not just target 4x4's it targets all gas guzzlers.

2) Smoking cigarettes is addictive, wasting money on petrol is not

3) Marking fridges with energy ratings has resulted in most new models now achieving the top rating

4) If Sian is exercising her right as a citizen to engage with politics, then who are you to say that she has to buy that right to be a citizen by being employed?

By the same logic we could all end up being slaves pretty fast - Basic rights are not and should not be trade-able, and should be extended to all, regardless of their circumstances.

5) Do you actually think that it is a bad thing that car manufacturers must disclose how much they are contributing to our collective demise?

Green Man
05 July 2008 at 12:53

Daniel,

1) Not just Gas Guzzlers, every car.

2) Yes??? Depends what you define as waste though.

3) Yes the same thing has been happening in the Motor industry long before the fridge companies got their act together, also long before Sian decided to stick her neck out too.

4) You've answered your own question here, I have a right to express my opinion the same as Sian. If she wants to recomend policy on Taxes then shouldn't she contribute to the public purse herself? If she wishes to help solve the problem it would certainly help if she wasn't part of the problem.

5) No I don't but that wasn't my point.

Daniel, I'm concerned that the argument given by the AAU4X4 is negative and aggresive. I'm unhappy that "activists" are using aggresive tactics to make their point. As the AAU4X4 is now an annexe of the Green Party (by default) because of the association with Sian the negative fallout is damaging. The goal of reducing CO2 is a positive one, therefore why not go about it in a positive way. Labeling someone akin to being a Drunk driver is aggresive and immature and doesn't solve anything, neither does pouncing on Mums doing the school run. It actually makes the Green party look like amateurs when they are a serious party with a serious message. The AAU4X4 only targets one small group while ignoring the bigger picture, this can't be good for any of us.

soundjat keita
05 July 2008 at 17:40

@Green Man

Good luck to you, mate. I disagree with most of what you say but you're entitled to say it and pseudonyms are common on the Internet, but then the Red-Greens don't live in the same world as the rest of us. No wonder they failed to get back their 3d seat and it went to the BNP instead. No wonder they get about 2% in by-elections (1% in the real green - i.e. the country). Jane Greene's aggressive tone is typical of leftists who are quite unable to debate.

Green Man
06 July 2008 at 11:21

soundjat keita

Thanks, I just hope Ms. Berry appreciates our contribution.

Jo Valentine
08 July 2008 at 18:06

Another blow for little Miss Green, you're getting more irrelevant by the day...

...Cheers Boris!

sianberry
10 July 2008 at 19:47

Is this Baroness Jo Valentine, chief executive of business group London First?

Jo Valentine
11 July 2008 at 14:19

No Sian it isn't, don't flatter yourself. I doubt Baroness Jo has even heard of you. I'm the lady who you and your cronys spat at one day a couple of years ago in Bellsize Park while you were "demonstrating", remember? Of course you do, you thought it was funny?

At the time I didn't know who you were, if I did I'd have pressed charges for assault. However you ran for Mayor and then I realised who you were. Nice to see you fall flat on your political face, thugs like you never win and my little finger is probably greener than you and your "activist" friends put together.